Tweaking Softener Sizing

[Treeman]

Hello Gentlemen,

Please share some of your wisdom so I can complete my softener sizing decision. I am replacing a 1.5 cu. ft Charger softener with Autotrol 155/460 head that lasted 20 years with no rebuilds or resin replacement. At peak, it served 2 adults and 3 teens.

Current Conditions: 2 Adults, Well, Hardness 27, Iron 1.3 ppm, 1 bath, top load washer, 1 inch H20 supply to smaller lines. No meter, 60-80 gpd each?????? 70 x 2 x 30 = 4200 +/- ??

If the 1.5 served well, I have to think that a 1.0 or 1.25 (ideal?) should work now. MY GOAL IS TO SEEK OPTIMUM EFFICIENCY this time around, both salt AND water use, as well as softener life.

Questions I need your wisdom on :
1.) With iron removal, is less than 7 day regeneration needed, as suggested by many ??
2.) Softener efficiency. the Aquatell sizing pdf suggests that one can go below 6 lbs. salt/cu. ft. resin to achieve highest efficiency (5000 grains per lb.) http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/index.html
IS THIS FEASIBLE?? Please explain the concepts of pros/cons. Run a larger unit at VERY high efficiency? Where does salt vs. water efficiency max. out?????
3.) Is the better 10% resin a consideration here?

1.0,1.25,or 1.5 cu. ft.?? Thank you for the discussion and explaining things that can only be learned by experience and wisdom.

My plan is to purchase a Charger softener with WS1 valve from our local distributor I have access to.

 

[blaze4545]

1) Because you are removing iron AND softening water in one unit, two regeneration a week would be much more efficient.

2) Look into Purolite SST 60 Water Softener Resin. It is double the price of most water softener resins, but higher quality and helps with the softener's efficiency. For example, on an Erie control valve 45K grain softener with the purolite media, we were able to get 7200 grains per pound of salt. The Raw water was 21 gr/gal.

Using a larger unit will definitely help with efficiency, but bigger units will need higher flow rates to backwash. Your supply is 1 inch (Copper?) lines so you should be able to go larger provided you have a decent flow rate and do not run out of water. At a certain point, it may be more efficient to get a twin/alternating water softener system.

Remember though, better salt efficiency means more regeneration and more water usage.

3) I would suggest the 10% water softener resin for your application. Your iron is less than 3.0ppm so you do not need fine mesh resin. The 10% resin SHOULD last you longer.

Look into the Clack Tahoe Water Softener Valve with the better brine recovery will also help with efficiency. A few other suppliers like them and say their customer's get 10-15% better salt efficiency. Might be worth the extra money.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Treeman]

Thank you blaze 4545. I want to retract my OPTIMUM EFFICIENCY request and change it to "best practical efficiency". Within practical budget limits, I desire to achieve minimum 3,333 grains per lb. efficiency (un-needed?).

1.) You are saying that 1.3ppm iron IS enough to require a shorter regeneration cycle. Is the 4 to 5 day cycle of our old unit okay? Please educate me on the reduced cycle for iron concept.

2.) IF my use numbers above are close, that equates to 16,800 to 21,000 grains in 4-5 days. Educate me on running a 1.5 cu. ft. model at less than 6 lbs. salt/cu. ft. Vs. running a 1 cu. ft. model at 6 lbs.? How do I tweak the salt efficiency vs. water efficiency vs. valve wear vs. iron handling?

I am not sure, yet, if Charger offers a 1.25 cu. ft. model, which seems ideal.

FYI, our supply line is 1 inch poly that immediately goes to 3/4" interior copper lines. Outside hose bib lines not softened. Septic system.

Thank you everyone. This stuff fascinates me.

 

[Bannerman]

As you are removing iron with the softener, your salt efficiency will never be as high as it could be if the iron was removed prior. With standard resin, a salt efficiency of 3,333 grains/lb is not recommended when iron is involved as additional salt should be used and regeneration needs to be more frequent. The resin should also be 'cleaned' using Iron-Out or equiv, on a regular basis, depending on the water pH.

Average water consumption with modern, higher efficient fixtures and appliances, is now typically 60 gals/person/day compared to 75 gals previously.

 

[ditttohead]

Extensive testing of the super efficiency resins... not real promising. Standard resin is just fine.

Too many of the resin manufacturers have been pushing claims of ultra efficiency but in real world testing none of them have stood up to their claims. Only under perfect lab controlled conditions have any of them even come close. We do regular and extensive tesing of resin from different manufacturers... just stick to standard.

As to the iron... at that level, you should not use a softener if you care about efficiency. Iron fouls resin and needs to be regenerated at higher salt levels and more frequently. This was common many years ago when efficiency and environmental concerns were not considered. Then some rivers caught on fire, water pollution became a legitimate concern etc. Now that the technology is available and fairly simple, you should seriously consider an iron reduction system ahead f the softener.

With reduced iron levels, extreme efficiency on the softener is fairly simple and you wont be replacing your resin every couple years or adding acids to the brine system regularly.

Your second post... 1 vs 1.5... not gonna bother with that one. Using a softener as an iron reduction system completely negates any realistic efficiency argument. Kind of like asking how do I get good gas mileage on my Jeep, simply not going to happen.

Are you going to replace a charger unit (typically Clack based) with a 20 year old autotrol 460 controller? Why? Don't get me wrong, I like the Autotrol valves but the Clack unit is considered a better valve by most. Assuming you have a Clack, can you post a picture? The Autotrol 155 valve was a great valve and was nearly bulletproof, but they did not particularly like iron. Their injection systems tend to foul up with iron much faster than the Clack.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Treeman]

From first post: "I am replacing a 1.5 cu. ft Charger softener with Autotrol 155/460 head that lasted 20 years with no rebuilds or resin replacement. At peak, it served 2 adults and 3 teens. My plan is to purchase a Charger softener with WS1 valve from our local distributor...." Charger offers all three brands of heads: http://www.chargerwater.com/resource-library

dittohead, your reply is what confounds the shade tree, non expert. I had good service with our old unit and it handled the iron just fine with occassional Iron Out use. FYI, looking at the original installer notes, my 1.5 unit was initially set to hardness 30, capacity 40K, salt 12lbs. and he recommended 4-5 day recharge.

There seems to be 2 camps regarding iron removal with softeners. The Aquatell pdf. says up to 2ppm iron "can work". http://www.aquatell.ca/pages/ultimate-water-softener-guide

 

[Bannerman]

What is the water pH? Low pH is acidic which assists in keeping the resin clean, similar to Iron-Out treatments but on a constant basis.

Can you post your lab analysis report?

If removing the iron before the softener, then 3,333 grains/lb is realistic and a regeneration frequency could be as few as 1X/month.

 

[Treeman]

pH varies between 7.1 and 7.6. It has never tested below 7. I get water tests for our greenhouses (same multiple well supply) periodically. Hardness varies between 350 - 450, mostly around 400 +/-. Iron ranges .3 to 1.6, but almost always 1.0 - 1.3.

 

[ditttohead]

As stated many times in previous posts, iron reduction can be done with a softener successfully. In my lab I can reduce iron in excess of 20 ppm with a softener with ease. But... the variables make it difficult. When recommendations are given over the internet rather than a local service company, the local service companies advice should be considered for the most part as more accurate.

I travel the world doing training seminars on water treatment and I can only base advice on known industry standards that work in the majority of applications. When a local water treatment company is working in a specific area, they tend to have worked for years finding out what does and does not work in your specific area based on your specific water conditions. if you read my last post, you will note that a non manganese dioxide ore based media called clinoptilolite is the preferred method for iron reduction by many companies. Try this media in some areas and it will be highly ineffective. Water treatment is very complex and all we can offer is guidelines for the DIY'r.
So... for your application, what you are doing worked but you are trying to make it more efficient? We will simply try to give you advise as to what can happen if you do.

Iron reduction with a softener is no longer considered by most modern water treatment companies a preferred choice like it was in the past. In the past, iron reduction options outside of softeners was very limited, complex, expensive and high maintenance. In the past 20 years huge strides have been made to make iron reduction much simple and more consistent.

We make dozens of different iron reduction technologies ranging from chemical injection, catalytic reduction, air injection, ozone, pH control etc. Each design has its pros and cons and dealers across the world typically go through a few different designs as they decide which one is the most effective for them.

Along the west coast, most of our dealers rely on a simple air injection and backwashing clinoptolite media. Pros: cheap, simple Cons: not always effective, air in the water, plugged lines after the air injector/before the clinoptilolite system, minimally effective at odor reduction.

Without having the original installers water tests, and local experience with the ground water that is unique to your area, we can only give you our best guesses.

There are very few absolutes in water treatment. Much of it requires considerable expertise and experience especially when it comes to private wells. Your local water treatment guy obviously has far more experience in regards to your water than anyone on an internet forum could have.

Now for the simple math and industry standards.

Iron is typically calculate at 5 gpg per ppm and is usually rounded up to the next level. ie: 1.4 ppm iron would rounded up to 2 ppm and calculated at 10 gpg "compensated" hardness.

Iron reduction in low pH levels of water will be more successful than higher pH water

Ferric iron is typically not removed by a softener

Water softener on iron free water can typically go a month between regenerations with little fear of damage to the system. Longer times between regeneration equals higher efficiencies but... the math plays out at about 10 days. Anything longer than 10 days adds little to the increase in efficiency.

When using a softener for iron reduction, frequent high salting regnerations should be considered. #-5 days is referred at 10 pounds per CF

Regular or constant treatment with a pH reduced brine solution will extend the systems life and increase performance.


All that being said, if you want to go outside of these recommendations, the problems will become more likely. Not assured, just simply more likely.

 

[Treeman]

Thank you. I understand your reply entirely. Layperson education vs. experienced industry education. I am trying to educate myself so that I can identify and work with the experts knowledgeably. Finding a local water expert is similar to finding a competent auto mechanic that can be trusted. Everyone should be able to relate to that. If not educated, you pay dearly for blinker fluid replacement.

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, headlight fluid. Did you change the tire in your airs recently?

Totally agreed, local water treatment guys just like any other profession is hit and miss. Many of the older water treatment guys don't want to try modern technologies and newer equipment and the newer guys only use the lowest cost garbage from China.

Updating your equipment to a modern design will benefit you in many ways except for your pocket book. Obviously adding some additional equipment will cost more but the benefit to the water quality and the environment is considerable.

I would recommend getting a good water quality test done by ntl labs. They have the easiest to read test I have seen. It makes my life much easier when they email the report from NTL Labs.

 

[Reach4]

Here are some sample reports:
http://www.watercheck.com/pdf/Watercheck_1_2_Sample_Report.pdf
(watercheck.com is an NTL site)
http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/example-reports/kit90-example-report.pdf

 

[Treeman]

My water is supplied by different interconnected wells and I have access to their testing program. One has to be careful about relying on a single test. Just like a soil test, blood test, oil analysis, etc., the test only reflects that moment in time of the sample.

It is hard to have a discussion because everyone has unique circumstances. I'm just trying to step up my education of the basics. Identify anecdotes vs. facts.

 

[ditttohead]

You have come to the right place. Most of the garbage online is stated as a cure all, and when it doesn't perform out comes the list of excuses. The knowledge of the guys on this website has been quite amazing. There are guys who know Culligan, Kinetico, Fleck, Clack etc. Most of the people trying to help out also have no agenda, just a decent amount of knowledge they wish to share. Every once in a while someone will chime in who has an absolute answer, these guys are usually shut down fairly quickly due to their obvious lack of knowledge or even a basic understanding of common water knowledge. Most of these guys are very green and need to spend another few years learning in the field.

FYI, a little background of my experience. almost 30 years of field work with a decade of specializing in USP27 water system design and startup. I have worked for a few of the largest names in the industry and now am part of Impact Water Products, a contract assembly and OEM company for many large water treatment dealers with a focus on higher end USA made equipment. I have worked with manufacturers all over the world and travel to these countries working with them on QC (not easy as in general it does not exist) which allows me to chose the best quality imported products when we have to rely on them for some components. Several of the other guys on this website have decades of experience as well and their willingness to share their knowledge has helped me over the years as well.