TOTO Ultramax II, MS604114CEFG toilet reviews & pictures

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Terry, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. r.j.

    r.j. New Member

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    Thanks Terry. By the way, which model tank were you referring to for holding 3 gallons of water ?
     
  2. Sterling Alexander

    Sterling Alexander New Member

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    Santa Fe, New Mexico
    Terry & All,

    I will be switching out toilets in a large residential property with nine bathrooms. I am unconcerned with saving water (or getting rebates) or product price differences of a few hundred dollars. (And no, I don't want a Neorest or Numi.) I also do not care about the additional noise from pressure-assisted flushing as the walls are very thick and practically soundproof. I simply want urine and large amounts of feces to disappear as quickly and cleanly as possible. I've narrowed down my choices to the gravity flow, Toto Ultra Max II Model MS604114CEFG and the pressure-assisted Kohler Highline Classic K-3493. I noticed that Terry has sold and installed both models and recommends both. Which one flushes better? If I throw away my plunger, kidnap an NFL team and feed them copious amounts of green chile cheeseburgers and stool hardener, which porcelain throne should be in the guest bathroom at the end of the hall?

    Thank you.

    Sterling
     
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    The pressure assist Kohler and the gravity TOTO are very different.
    If it's my nine bath home, I'm going with the TOTO.
    Unless you have guests showing up with medical issues, go with the TOTO.
    Medical issues meaning stool size is very large. So large that they are plugging toilets everywhere they go.

    Most gravity tanks hold a lot more that the required 1.28 gallons. The Ultramax holds about 3 gallons in the tank if needed. Hold the lever down a moment longer and whoosh.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  4. Sterling Alexander

    Sterling Alexander New Member

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    Thank you for your fast response. No medical issues-just large men making large deposits. I'm aware that these two toilets look and function differently. Both also offer premium bidet seats (s350e and c3-230) that I may consider purchasing for a few rooms. How does the TOTO outperform the Kohler (besides its lack of a loud "woosh" noise when flushing)? Can the TOTO successfully flush a bowl full of golf balls? I haven't been able to find a ratings/comparison webpage or a split-screen demonstration for these two toilets.
     
  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Even the worst toilets I pull out and toss will flush golf balls.
    It's an amazing thing to see, round objects bouncing their way down the pathway and down the drain. It's too bad nobody poops marbles though. I will have to keep that in mind though if I start doing service work for robots that perhaps in the future will simulate human activites by being programed to poop marbles.
    The real human thing we mainly deal with is paper. I'm not a fan of Charmin with it's almost cotton like material. A bidet seat solves some of that. In many countries, they wash mainly with water, very little paper. You won't see many trees there, so they think it rather silly how much paper we use. For myself, living in the Seattle area, I love the warm seat of the bidets and Washets. I'm getting a little spoiled I guess.
    Yes, I've also had pressure assist toilets in the home to see how that all works. I have one at my mothers place too in one bathroom. The one I had in my home got me in trouble with the women. It was a Consumer Reports "Best Buy" that the women hated and were afraid to use. I guess the men in white coats loved it with all it's silly noise, but lacked the ability to flush paper. It was great flushing sponges and baby wipes. Two things I don't allow in my home to be flushed. But I guess the men in white coats do. At least in their warehouse they fit up for testing with silly items so they can write about what I do for a living and keep their hands clean.
    I will say that the Kohler pressure assist is my favorite of the pressure assist bowls. They did a good job with it. And I do recommend it for those that need that kind of power. It has it's place.
    Another toilet that I worked on today, one more Consumer Reports "Best Buy", The American Standard Champion was flushing rather poorly when I first got there. Unlike the TOTO Ultramax, holding the handle down did nothing. The flush valve for the Champion leaves a lot of water in the tank. With the imperfect adjustment, the homeowners were flushing several times to get things to go down. I made some adjustments and was able to get it to flush with a flip, but I will have to say, the Ultramax has more options and would be my choice. But then, I have installed hundreds of these things. I have to deal with the end user. I don't get to try something "one time" and call myself an expert. I don't have a white coat. Maybe I should get me one of those dang white coats too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  6. Sterling Alexander

    Sterling Alexander New Member

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    Ah, ok. So the same pressure-assisted flush that can move large objects might be stronger than the force required to flush toilet paper down the hole. The high-pressure stream, like a fire hose at close range, obliterates the paper into little pieces which fly upward and outward rather than go down the hole. By contrast, gravity and the pressure head differential created by a traditional toilet tank moves the paper and the water together without making mincemeat of the paper. I think I understand now.

    I was not able to find a Consumer Reports review of the TOTO Ultramax II, only the pressure-assisted Kohler. I understand the importance of verifying CR's little red circles with other ratings, customer reviews on retail websites, feedback from enthusiast forums and when I can find it, expert commentary from practitioners in the field. Thank you for your time and assistance.
     
  7. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Consumer Reports is well aware of what I like, and what my customers like.
    They have sent me letters from their lawyers asking me to quit writing about plumbing. Fat chance on that.
    So then they plugged an Ultramax up, and then took video of a plugged toilet, with the comment that it woudn't flush liquids.
    I'm surprised they didn't get sued for that one. I have lost all respect for them.

    When I was in the bicycle business in the 60's, their favorite bike was a Schwinn Varsity. The heaviest cluncker there ever was.
    That one got the top rating for not bending when running it into a brick wall. I'm not making that up. A brick wall.
    For people that read Consumer Reports, and that was the first question I had for people, Did you read Consumer Reports? If the answer was yes, I sold them that tank heavy bike that you had to drag up hills. Otherwise I let them ride a few brands and get something light and quick.
    I used to commute to work everyday on my bike. I could average twenty miles an hour on it. My personal frame set was from a custom maker in England with Italian componets.

    I have sold hundreds of the TOTO Ultramax II. They work great.
    I also have one in my Master bath.
     
  8. Sheila123

    Sheila123 New Member

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    Apr 22, 2017
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    California
    Hi Terry, we will be replacing 3 toilets in our house ( 2 story house, less than 1 year old). We had a backup due to a clogged main sewer line inside our house. The clog was due to paper and we do not use tons of paper.
    Do you recommend Ultramax II? Drake II or another one?
    Also I am 5 ft 3" and have a 4 year old. In your opinion is the toilet height a big issue? Thank you very much!
     
  9. Joseph J. Janus

    Joseph J. Janus New Member

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    Location:
    New Castle, PA
    I am almost the owner of a Toto Ultramax II, 1.28 GPF toilet and wanted to share my experience so far.

    My toilet was ordered from an online vendor on Sunday, April 30, 2017 to be shipped to me via a freight carrier.

    On the evening of May 4, 2017, I was contacted by the trucking company that my toilet would be delivered between 3 and 7 pm on May 5, 2017. At 7:07, one of the guys on the truck called me and said they were running late and would be here in about 40 minutes. At 7:44 pm they pulled up and one of them got in the back and started moving freight around to get to my toilet. There were two toilets stacked on top of each other, mine was upside down on the top of the second toilet. When he pulled it off the stack it fell and the lid was broken and there was a large chip in the tank.

    It’s obvious to me that the reviews I read about how well they are packed were wrong. There was absolutely no packing material around the tank and the lid was on the tank with no cushioning between the two and the box above the tank wasn’t even sealed. I could see that it was fully assembled but I couldn’t see the bowl to see how it was packed.

    I am not at all happy about waiting four hours and forty-four minutes only to have the toilet damaged and never even make it off the truck.

    I have no faith that a replacement can be shipped without damage if that’s all the better the units are packaged.
     
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    The stuff I pick up locally is perfect.
    Having a delivery guy that drops off small packages that he can throw at the door is not the same as lifting a 100 pound box successfully and getting it to your doorstep in one piece. They are made of clay that's fired in a kiln. They break if dropped.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The thing may have made it to the depot in one piece. SOmetimes, it's best to pick it up there rather than having it unloaded to the dock, shuffled around, loaded onto a local delivery truck, then dropped, sometimes literally, at your door. Best thing, though, is to pick it up from a local dealer. Usually, you can get close and sometimes even beat the online prices.
     
  12. Joseph J. Janus

    Joseph J. Janus New Member

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    Unfortunately, the delivery terminal is nearly 150 miles from here in another state, so picking it up is not an option.

    Are all of the Ultramax II toilets shipped with absolutely no packing material around the tank and the box above the tank not sealed?
     
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    [​IMG]

    And yes, the caulking will dry clear in the morning. I use clear.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
  14. TeXan

    TeXan New Member

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    I have a double cyclone drake II It does flush well however... the action doesn't take care of skid marks on the walls of the bowel. I have installed 8 of the standard drake elongated and they do much better with wash down and taking care of the skidmarks beware..
     
  15. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Funny.
    I took out a standard elongated Drake from the Master and replaced it with double cyclone. I like the double cyclone better than the original.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  16. koa

    koa In the Trades

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    Location:
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Aloha Terry. I have older Ultramaxs that I'm happy with. A friend has asked my opinion since they want to change out their older Kohler and Toto Washlet to an ADA Toto and S350e. I'm going to do the install. My questions are, I'm seeing a 1 gallon, a 1.28 gallon and a 1.6 gallon (mine). They now appear to have a tower or flapper (like mine). Saving water is not an issue. Is the tower better/desirable over the flapper? I was thinking the combo with the Washlet hole in toilet would be a good choice but I think that's only in the 1 and 1.28 gallon. Other than the Neorest (which they are also considering) what's best option for a one piece? Money is not really an issue. The side skirt side of other Toto models they don't care about since you can't really see the toilet from the side since it's in a stall. Main thing is flush, one piece and height since they both have bad knees. Will get it from a local Toto dealer. Also does one of the Neorests hit a sweet spot for bang for the bucks? Thanks.
     
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    The easy choice is the Ultramax II with 1.28. It works great and can be gotten with either the standard bowl or with the Connect bowl for the Connect Washlets.
    The Connect does a little better at hiding cords and hoses.
    Any of the Neorest are nice. I figure at least four hours for installing those. If you know the model at rough-in you can make sure the water supply is where you want it.

    [​IMG]

    I installed an Ultramax in Seattle today and would have done a Lynnwood install but the rough was too short and the supply was from the floor and in a bad spot for TOTO. I switched up the brand on that one and found out that American Standard likes to hide the bolt caps inside the bowl where the tank mounts. They don't flush well with that bag of stuff in there. I had to pull the tank and pull the bag of goodies out.

    Yes, I like the Ultramax II very much. And I prefer a Washlet or Neorest over the standalone bidets.

    [​IMG]

    A nice view of Seattle overlooking Lake Union.
    And they had a very nice dog to greet me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  18. koa

    koa In the Trades

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    Thanks. That's what I was leaning towards unless they decide to go with a Neorest. I've already let them know a Neorest install is a bit more involved, which they are fine with.
     
  19. Treeman

    Treeman Member

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    Jan 29, 2010
    Location:
    Michigan
    Isn't the "new" cyclone or swirling tornado action of these toilets just a return to how the old toilets flushed originally?



    EDIT Following Terry's response: I was just referring to the swirling tornado action vs. straight "drop down" action of Drake and other newer toilets.

    I do acknowledge and understand that design differences were implemented to achieve a great flush with much less water. I'm just fascinated that they returned to the swirling effect that existed before. Also of interest is that 2 of the video toilets flush counter clockwise vs. all the others. Toilet fascination, LOL.

    Thanks Terry! for all that you do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  20. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Nope.
    Old toilets used five or more gallons and had many holes punched under a rim.
    This gets rid of the rim, uses two outlets and flushes way better using only 1.28 gallons.
    You can keep the plunger in the garage, or just borrow from a neigbor when needed.
     
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