Toto Ultramax- help following valve replacement

[SenorT]

We have what was originally an Ultimate, purchased ~15 years ago, that's had its valve and flapper replaced with the Gmax versions over the years.

Most recently, the valve started leaking instead of fully shutting off. This was a TSU18A from 2012 (I started ordering parts online before they were widely available at HD/Lowe's, and it's a great help knowing exactly what I bought years later). The flapper had been replaced in late 2016 with a Korky 2021BP.

TSU18A fill valve

TSU99A.X

The valve I installed a few weeks ago is a TSU99A.X. I went by the directions, which, IIRC, had me set the height to 4 notches exposed and the throttling valve on the overflow tube to a 5 on the shim key that came with the valve. The only thing I'd do differently is that I cut the tube a hair short (maybe 1/8" to 1/4") and it bends a little at the overflow tube connection. It isn't kinked, but the tube gets a touch oval-y there. The hardest part was looking up the model number to be able to read the table with the settings for the universal valve.

So, here's what's happening. Unless you hold the flapper open, it closes too quickly and the toilet doesn't flush completely. Same flapper that worked fine with the old valve a few weeks ago. In typical fashion for my experience with Toto tech support, I called and their response was "it's your water" and they suggested replacing the flapper b/c it had become waterlogged. FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and our water is pretty soft and no chloramines in use. And this flapper has only been in the tank for ~18 months.

Suggestions? I have another valve on order to have as a shelf spare, and I'm going to open it up and make sure that the settings I used are correct. I've thought about raising the valve height by a notch, even though where I set it seemed to be per the directions and the same (as best I could tell) as the one I replaced. Seems pretty dumb to replace the valve and think that suddenly make the flapper not work. Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

I think that when you say "valve" you mean fill valve rather than flush valve.

Yet your symptom seems to be that the flapper on the flush valve closes too quickly. Do I have that right? I suspect I may have mis-characterized your symptom.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[SenorT]

I think that when you say "valve" you mean fill valve rather than flush valve.

Yet your symptom seems to be that the flapper on the flush valve closes too quickly. Do I have that right? I suspect I may have mis-characterized your symptom.

Yes. Replaced the fill valve and now the flapper closes too quickly. Trap doesn't even glug unless you hold lever down for a 2+ count. I've always done this to make sure it didn't clog for "big jobs," but now I'm having to do this every time. Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Looking at the Korky site, and using their finder, they recommend the Part Number: 3060 flapper for a Toto Ultimate from before 2004. That is adjustable. They listed 3 others that would fit, including the 2021, but they put a "KORKY RECOMMENDED" on the 3060.

https://www.korky.com/parts/flapper-seal-replacements

 

[WJcandee]

Most likely, it's coincidence.

However, you're not totally-wedded to the recommended settings on the TSU99A.X. Toto gives you those so that they can recreate with one universal valve the to-the-tablespoonful water usage of the original factory part. They're super-precise and anal. You don't have to be.

You can adjust the valve (which is basically a Korky 528MP) up or down a bit if you want. Turn off water, twist head to unlock (assuming you didn't put the tamper-proof-key in, then this becomes more of a PITA), slide up or down, twist again to lock, and voila. I would try setting the water level a little-higher.

Also, just check that you didn't bump or press on the trip lever in a way that it's not pulling the flapper straight up, or that the chain didn't stretch (by pulling the loop at the flapper further into the rubber). Usually, if flappers are misfiring (what I call it anyway -- the same/correct flapper closing too fast), it's a chain-length issue. Try one link shorter and one link longer and see if that doesn't fix the problem. It usually does for me.

 

[SenorT]

Looking at the Korky site, and using their finder, they recommend the Part Number: 3060 flapper for a Toto Ultimate from before 2004. That is adjustable. They listed 3 others that would fit, including the 2021, but they put a "KORKY RECOMMENDED" on the 3060.

https://www.korky.com/parts/flapper-seal-replacements

I still find it bizarre, but that did the trick. Thanks.

 

[SenorT]

Most likely, it's coincidence.

However, you're not totally-wedded to the recommended settings on the TSU99A.X. Toto gives you those so that they can recreate with one universal valve the to-the-tablespoonful water usage of the original factory part. They're super-precise and anal. You don't have to be.

You can adjust the valve (which is basically a Korky 528MP) up or down a bit if you want. Turn off water, twist head to unlock (assuming you didn't put the tamper-proof-key in, then this becomes more of a PITA), slide up or down, twist again to lock, and voila. I would try setting the water level a little-higher.

Also, just check that you didn't bump or press on the trip lever in a way that it's not pulling the flapper straight up, or that the chain didn't stretch (by pulling the loop at the flapper further into the rubber). Usually, if flappers are misfiring (what I call it anyway -- the same/correct flapper closing too fast), it's a chain-length issue. Try one link shorter and one link longer and see if that doesn't fix the problem. It usually does for me.

Thanks for the input. Dumb question- I take it you don't have to install the tamper tab with the TSU99A.X? I had the impression you needed it to make sure the adjustable part of the fill valve didn't adjust on its own.

By comparison, the flapper I took out (2021 BP) had one hole in the side of the dome, in addition to the one at the top. The adjustment setting for the 3060 flapper for the Ultimate closed off the side hole entirely. There wasn't a setting for the Ultramax in Korky's info on the adjustable flapper, so I assume it's just related to the one-piece toilet.

 

[WJcandee]

If the toilet seems to be flushing the way you like it, don't worry about it. The holes and such control the water level at which the flapper closes, hence the amount of water that is involved in the flush.

As to the tamper tab, no you don't need to install it if the valve is going in your home and you don't have anybody in the family who would be inclined to mess with it. In fact, Korky (which makes the valve) has removed the suggestion that you use it from their own instructions; instead, they recommend that it be installed where the toilet is in commercial use to keep tamperers from...well...tampering. When you install the valve and twist to lock the valve, you will feel the head move up a smidge as it locks into position; once you turn on the water, the pressure keeps the head pressed upwards against the lock stop. It is actually a little bit of a challenge to turn and release it with the water turned on at the wall; you have to affirmatively press down as you try to twist to unlock (and then if you do it will shoot up to its full length from the water pressure if you're not pressing down hard on it). So if you have it locked in place when you turn on the water, it is unlikely to come unlocked thereafter, even if people mess with it a little. You can't just turn it. Depending upon what installation method you use, it may get partially-unlocked as you're putting it back in the tank, and you want to check that it's locked before turning on the water. Do that, and it should be fine.

I have 8 of them installed in our two living locations, and I don't have the tamper tab installed in any, mostly because I might decide to adjust the water level a little at some point and want to be able to do that easily. The two I have helped a friend install in toilets in her dive bar, I put the tamper tab in. It's easy enough to install the tab, but a bit of a pain to remove without removing the valve from the toilet. Which is I guess the point.