Toto replacement flapper closes too soon.

[rkoo]

Ten-year-old Toto (Drake, I think). I replaced the flapper (finally too old and leaky) with a Korky that looks exactly the same, and seems to be the correct replacement. After trying the chain at all different lengths, I absolutely cannot get it to stay open long enough to actually flush (unless I hold the handle down for several long seconds). Please don't tell me that's how low-flow toilets work; I understand that the tank won't clear, but before, even a quick flip of the handle would result in an adequate flush for pee, and a normal push of the handle worked for everything else. Now, the flapper drops shut so fast that there is only about a 2-inch-diameter water spot at the very bottom of the bowl - definitely not normal!

Can anyone help me trouble-shoot this issue?

 

[rkoo]

A few more details about the flapper, in case that matters. I looked at the package; it say Toto G-Max, authorized TOTO replacement; it's model number 2021BP, by Lavele Industries.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[SteveW]

Is the small plastic hose from the fill valve pointed into the overflow tube?

The observation that you have a small water spot suggests that the bowl is not being filled properly. The bowl gets filled by that small hose.

If the bowl isn't being filled properly, you won't get a good flush.

 

[Jadnashua]

Not all of the Toto toilets use the same flapper. Without knowing which one you have, it's hard to say what you need. But, if it's a 3" one, Korky now makes an adjustable one that should work for nearly all of them. It has a ring you turn to adjust how long it stays open so you get the proper flow.

 

[rkoo]

SteveW -Yes, the hose is pointed correctly, and the TANK fills properly. I thought the BOWL got filled by the water running out of the tank when the flapper was open.

 

[SteveW]

Actually when a toilet is flushed, a slug of water from the tank does enter the bowl, but due to a siphon effect most of that water leaves the bowl. The fill valve in the tank refills both the tank and the bowl.

Do you see water running in that hose/tube when the fill valve is running? If so, then that's not the problem. I would do what Jim D says above and look for one of the adjustable Korky flappers -- I've used them in my Toto toilets and you do sometimes have to tweak them a bit to get the right amount of water per flush.

 

[Reach4]

http://www.fluidmaster.com/products/toilet/flappers/5403-universal-adjustable-3-flapper/ is the Fluidmaster adjustable.

You still need to look into that bowl refill situation. You may have two problems.

 

[speedlever]

Having just installed a new Drake I yesterday, I thought it was normal to flip the handle for a quick flush (1.28 gallon) and hold the handle for the long (1.6 gallon) flush. True?

 

[rkoo]

Speedlever - Yes, that's what I used to do (as described in my original post) - but when I say 'Hold down' this time, I mean like 10+ seconds.

SteveQ - perhaps that's my problem then, that I misunderstood the role of the tube that sprays the water into tank. So forgive my misunderstanding, and clarify for me please, - should the water be running from that tube directly into the tank (that's what's happening now, I think), directly into the standing tube, or split/both at the same time?

 

[SteveW]

Speedlever - Yes, that's what I used to do (as described in my original post) - but when I say 'Hold down' this time, I mean like 10+ seconds.

SteveQ - perhaps that's my problem then, that I misunderstood the role of the tube that sprays the water into tank. So forgive my misunderstanding, and clarify for me please, - should the water be running from that tube directly into the tank (that's what's happening now, I think), directly into the standing tube, or split/both at the same time?

Aha -- so this may be the problem! The little tube from the fill valve should be attached to the approximately one-inch diameter "overflow" (what you I think are referring to as the "standing") tube and should be shooting its water stream right down that overflow tube, thus "topping off" the water in the bowl to prepare for the next flush.

Usually there is a little metal clip that holds the little tube just above the opening of the overflow tube. You don't actually want to stuff the little tube into the overflow tube. Look around in the bottom of the tank for that clip. If not there, you might just want to buy a new fill valve and replace the whole thing, which will include a new small tube and clip.

 

[SteveW]

Having just installed a new Drake I yesterday, I thought it was normal to flip the handle for a quick flush (1.28 gallon) and hold the handle for the long (1.6 gallon) flush. True?

Yes, you can do this and many people do. However, that toilet, not being a true dual-flush toilet, is really engineered so that whatever is in the bowl should be successfully flushed by simply pressing the handle down fully and releasing -- no need to hold even for solid waste.

 

[rkoo]

SOLVED!!
SteveW - I've always considered it to be called an overflow tube, and that may be why I thought the water was NOT supposed to actually flow into it - just take any OVERFLOW in case there was a malfunction causing the water to still run); that's why I just described it as 'standing."

The clip was indeed there, still attached to the tube, and it was clipped to the top of the overflow tube, but spraying into the tank. I think when I replaced the flapper, the clipped tube got knocked off, and I replaced it wrong, thinking it was supposed to just flow into the tank. I just changed it so if flows down the overflow tube, and it worked!

So simple! I can't believe nobody ever suggests this - I've been on google several times now, at dozens of sites, being told to shorten the chain; lengthen the chain;replace with a different flapper; stuff floaty stuff into the flapper; add a donut of foam above the flapper. (I didn't try any of those floaty things, but did play with the chain length a lot!). THANK YOU!!

 

[SteveW]

You are most welcome. I have learned so much from this site that it's nice to be able to pass along a little of this knowledge.

Kind of satisfying to solve these little life puzzles, isn't it?

Good work! Your perseverance paid off!

 

[Jadnashua]

Trying to get a single flush toilet to utilize less than the design can be tricky, and they are not designed for that function...all that I'm aware of, and Toto in particular, just push the handle down fully, and release. You'll get the designed water use per flush. IF you hold the handle down for 10-seconds, you're going to use maybe as much as 3 gallons or maybe more. That extra water in the tank is used for extra pressure (think water tower)...it is not there to be flushed down the drain. Certainly, you could, but a quality toilet will do its thing when you just use it as designed. IMHO, if you want to reliably potentially use less water, buy a dual-flush toilet, and, there should never be a reason to hold the handle down unless you're trying to empty the tank for maintenance.

 

[WJcandee]

Nice diagnosis job, Steve!! You focused on the member's concern about the bowl refill level, and pressed on about it until you helped the member solve his problem. Great job!

We are so often helping to diagnose in the blind; a photo helps so much and would immediately have shown the issue.

 

[SteveW]

Nice diagnosis job, Steve!! You focused on the member's concern about the bowl refill level, and pressed on about it until you helped the member solve his problem. Great job!

We are so often helping to diagnose in the blind; a photo helps so much and would immediately have shown the issue.

You made my day! Thanks for the very kind encouragement.

 

[rkoo]

Jadnashua - To clarify - I only had to hold it down so long because I didn't have it set up properly, so that was the only way to get a full flush-&-refill. I realize it was really wasting water, so I'm glad I've fixed it now.

Using my TOTO as a pseudo-dual-flush has always worked fine for me, for the past 10 years (until this issue, which was due to MY mistake), even if it wasn't designed to use that way. We also have a proper dual-flush Caroma toilet, which we love, but our Toto is working fine, so so need to replace it for now.

 

[speedlever]

In the few months since my Totos have been installed, all 3 exhibit the same behavior. IE, a full push and release is a minimal flush and may not take solid waste with it. A press, brief hold (2 seconds or so) and release has never failed to completely flush whatever is in the bowl.