Too Frequent Regen --268/762 Autotrol

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wascalwabbitt

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With regards to the use of iron out:
--It is in powder form, so do I just put some into the brine tank water tube? And then force a Regen?

With regards AIO
--I'm leaning the same way, as the iron out seems like a temporary measure. But we'll see how it works.
 

Bannerman

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do I just put some into the brine tank water tube?
Suggest dissolving the powder into 1-2 gallons warm water and then pour that down the brine well inside the brine tank.

For additional contact time for the resin to soak in the IO solution, once all of the brine and cleaning solution has been drawn from the brine tank into the resin tank, bypass the softener and pull-out the electrical plug. After 30-60 minutes, resume water flow and power to allow the softener to complete the remaining regeneration cycle.
 

wascalwabbitt

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I just ran a hardness test and it’s back to where I started before the softener install at 450.
So I looked in the salt tank and noticed that the salt seems to be caked and plugging the brine well slots. I tasted the water at the top of the well and there’s no salty taste. It wasn’t until I pushed the suction tube to the very bottom of the brine well, right into the caked salt, that I could taste the salt.
I think the softener is just drawing plain non salty water.

How do I prevent this caking of the salt and fix this issue?.
 

wascalwabbitt

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Reach4

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I just ran a hardness test and it’s back to where I started before the softener install at 450.
So I looked in the salt tank and noticed that the salt seems to be caked and plugging the brine well slots. I tasted the water at the top of the well and there’s no salty taste. It wasn’t until I pushed the suction tube to the very bottom of the brine well, right into the caked salt, that I could taste the salt.
Interesting. I guess it makes sense that the water in the brine tube could be stratified. Regarding not softening, I would do a regen, and watch the brine level. What I would expect is backwash for maybe 10 minutes or less, where no brine is drawn. The ball is floating high in the air check valve. (If the ball is stuck to the bottom, that would cause your no-softening symptom.) Then the brine gets drawn. The ball is bouncing a bit. I expect the brine to be sucked down as far as it is going to in about 15 minutes. At that point, the air check ball falls all of the way, blocking air from being sucked in. Time how long it takes into the brine draw cycle for the ball to go down all of the way. The remainder of that control cycle serves as the slow rinse.

Here's my recently installed micronizer. Why am I not hearing any whistling of the air as it's being drawn in?
Is that the line from the well pump up high? There should be no valve between the well pump and the pressure switch. But also, the micronizer needs between the well pump and the pressure tank to get the flow rate to operate the micronizer. The micronizer is a directional device. I expect you paid attention.

There should be a valve between the pressure tank and the house pipes.

So I see 3 water ports on your assembly: left, center+high, and right. What are they?
 

wascalwabbitt

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Interesting. I guess it makes sense that the water in the brine tube could be stratified. Regarding not softening, I would do a regen, and watch the brine level. What I would expect is backwash for maybe 10 minutes or less, where no brine is drawn. The ball is floating high in the air check valve. (If the ball is stuck to the bottom, that would cause your no-softening symptom.) Then the brine gets drawn. The ball is bouncing a bit. I expect the brine to be sucked down as far as it is going to in about 15 minutes. At that point, the air check ball falls all of the way, blocking air from being sucked in. Time how long it takes into the brine draw cycle for the ball to go down all of the way. The remainder of that control cycle serves as the slow rinse.

Is that the line from the well pump up high? There should be no valve between the well pump and the pressure switch. But also, the micronizer needs between the well pump and the pressure tank to get the flow rate to operate the micronizer. The micronizer is a directional device. I expect you paid attention.

There should be a valve between the pressure tank and the house pipes.

So I see 3 water ports on your assembly: left, center+high, and right. What are they?

The brine slots were caked closed. I'm waiting on a 5" high salt deck to place into bottom of brine tank to hopefully solve that issue.
The line from the well is at the far left of the photo. The micronizer is downstream from the pressure tank. And placed correctly regarding it's flow direction.

I originally had placed the micronizer between the well and the pressure tank. But then the pump was cycling every 10-11 seconds and the psi gauge would radically jump around.

I spoke with the supplier and he said the sequence should be:
-well
-pressure tank
-micronizer
-retention tank
+Iron filter
- softener

So I installed the micronizer after the pressure tank and now the pump cycles the same as when there was no micronizer. 20 seconds on, 1minute 40 sec off.

I only have a 22 gallon pressure tank, but 6 gpm well. Supplier told me I should have 10minutes times the gpm of the well or 60 gallons. Is that calculation correct
 

Reach4

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The micronizer needs a minimum flow to be able to suck in air. If you are filling a toilet or taking a shower, a micronizer after the pressure tank is not going to have enough water flow to suck air. LLigetfa and others have micronizer experience. Also it is important with a micronizer to not have the air pressure too high, or the micronizer cannot overcome the water pressure to suck in air. With a micronizer adding air, you need something to release air.

I only have a 22 gallon pressure tank, but 6 gpm well. Supplier told me I should have 10minutes times the gpm of the well or 60 gallons. Is that calculation correct
You try to get the pump to run for a minimum of a minute. Usually, for tank with air precharge, the rule of thumb would be the tank size should be 4x what the pump delivers in gpm or bigger. The FL7, which I think you have, has a diaphragm. It would be appropriate to a pump delivering 5.5 gpm or less.
 

LLigetfa

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My system is as follows:
Submersible pump > micronizer > HP tank > contact tank > iron filter > softener.

I have the bypass on the micronizer dialed in so that it sucks air up to 55 PSI (40/60 PSI switch). The pressure switch is connected to the top of the HP tank where it measures the air pressure. I used to have the pressure switch connected just in front of the HP tank inlet but the iron and manganese wreaked havoc with it.

My contact tank is a modified HP tank where I shortened the AVC by a foot so the tank holds a foot more water.
 

wascalwabbitt

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You try to get the pump to run for a minimum of a minute. Usually, for tank with air precharge, the rule of thumb would be the tank size should be 4x what the pump delivers in gpm or bigger. The FL7, which I think you have, has a diaphragm. It would be appropriate to a pump delivering 5.5 gpm or less.

How do you get the pump to run for minimum one minute? If it’s currently running for 20 seconds with my FL7 - 22 gal tank wouldn’t I have to go to a tank 3 times bigger (60gal) in order for the pump to be on for 1 minute? Additionally, is the pump time on dependent of downstream outlet valves (shower, sink taps) being open during pumping?
 

Reach4

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So am I correct in inferring that this is why a hydropneumatic tank is used instead of a regular pressure tank? Could you please explain the purpose and how exactly an hp tank works?
Back in the old days, hydropneumatic was the norm. The precharged tank offered certain advantages.

The main use of the hydropneumatic tank today is allow air to be injected, so that the air can react to improve the water. The hydropneumatic tank gets rid of the excess air by using an AVC.

How do you get the pump to run for minimum one minute? If it’s currently running for 20 seconds with my FL7 - 22 gal tank wouldn’t I have to go to a tank 3 times bigger (60gal) in order for the pump to be on for 1 minute?
Yes. Your tank is undersized for your pump.
Additionally, is the pump time on dependent of downstream outlet valves (shower, sink taps) being open during pumping?
The 1 minute target is with water not being used. If water is being used, the pump would run longer. The 1 minute is a target. There are a lot of people who get less run time and may get years of system life.
 

wascalwabbitt

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suggest programming 12 lbs/40K which at 140 gals/day @ 25 gpg is anticipated to result in approx 11 days between regen cycles. A 15 - 18 day override setting will allow some leeway for periods with lower than average water consumption.

Good day all. I finally received a salt deck to place into the bottom of the brine tank and am in process of cleaning the brine tank and starting fresh. The system has been set as per Bannerman’s suggested programming above.
How much water should I add to the salt tank to start off ?
 

Bannerman

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As 1 gallon water will dissolve 3 lbs salt, for a 12 lbs salt setting, 4 gallons will be needed each regeneration. Since there will be some brine that will always remain below the air check after brine draw, then some additional water should be added initially. The remaining amount will likely be less than 1 gallon but if you add 5-5.5 gallons, that should ensure there is adequate brine produced for the first regeneration cycle to occur after the brine tank is cleaned.
 

wascalwabbitt

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The most recommended efficiency configurations on this forum for a 2 cuft softener are 3k grains/lb (16 lbs to regen 48K grains capacity) or 3,333 gr/lb (12 lbs for 40K gr cap) as these are a good balance between salt efficiency, water quality and regeneration frequency.

I'm not understanding why the 10-day override is set. A short override is often required when the softener is to remove iron, but then, a higher salt dose is also needed to reduce iron fouling. With iron exposure, salt efficiency will not be the main concern.

In programming a short override, if there is unused capacity remaining when the override setting lapses, the resulting regeneration cycle will regenerate capacity that does not need to be regenerated. The unused capacity is wasted which then results in lower overall efficiency, even if the salt setting chosen is extremely efficient. With a meter initiated softener, the most efficient operation will be for the flow meter to fully manage when regeneration occurs, based on the usable capacity programmed (P7) being consumed.

Suggest programming 12 lbs/40K which at 140 gals/day @ 25 gpg is anticipated to result in approx 11 days between regen cycles. A 15 - 18 day override setting will allow some leeway for periods with lower than average water consumption.


Just an update for those who might be interested:
The brine well tube slots were fully plugged so on the 10th of November I installed a new salt deck into the brine tank after thoroughly cleaning everything out. Then I thought, this system had performed very good for the first 4 months of use, probably just up until those brine well slots plugged off due to no salt deck.

So, I removed the micronizer, bypassed the iron filter and pushed the softener day override down to 10 days.

The water at the well specs are 3.6 ppm iron with 25 hardness. The resin is SST60.

So far, the smell is gone and the system has performed good for the last 4 weeks. My initial goal at the outset was to not add air for iron removal.
I will continue to monitor it and do occasional iron and hardness tests.

I have pushed the days override down to 10 to see if the softener alone can do the job on both iron/hardness at these levels. If it continues to perform well I'll creep the override up over time. If the performance is subpar I'll push the days override down further to see if it's possible to not add air.
I really don't want to jack up the salt anymore at this point in time.
 

wascalwabbitt

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16 Months Later
For those who may be interested, my system has performed well with the addition of the new salt deck. It is using about 1 - 1.5 bags of salt per month and pretty much takes out all of the iron. There is a faint trace in the toilet bowl but we are just using a powder iron remover to take care of that on occasion. My goal of clean water with only a softener has been working well. Thanks for all of the help to the great members on this site!!
 
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