Toilet spacing and back to back lav

Users who are viewing this thread

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
Hi,

I have been searching for clarification on a couple of code related questions I have about a very small closet to half bath conversion I am in the middle of. Apologies if these questions have been answered before; I haven't had luck finding a definite answer.

1) My toilet waste flange is set in a location that doesn't have the full 15" of clearance on both sides, but few inches forward away from the back wall, there is the required 15" of center on both sides. I am hoping not to have to move walls, but am unclear on whether 15" is required at the flange or at the middle of the toilet bowl or other. It would make sense to me that the purpose of this is clearance for a person to sit, so I'm hoping its from the bowl or something forward of the flange.
toilet waste location.jpg




2) I have a lavatory sink on the other side of the wall, and just branched off of the waste/vent line for that with a san tee. I'm wondering now if this is to code or if I need to put in a double fixture fitting/ create a separate vertical waste/drain line for it. It is 1.5" pipe if that matters.
back to back lav.jpg


Thanks so much in advance for any guidance on this. I am trying to avoid the failing inspection and having to reschedule.
 

Breplum

Licensed plumbing contractor
Messages
1,903
Reaction score
767
Points
113
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Inspectors sometimes feel differently so, luck, may have to come in here.
Under UPC:
Lav in "sets" of two or three is 2 f.u., and vertical drain can be 1.5". But, your situation is not quite a "set".
AND standard 90s in horizontal is not allowed. Supposed to be long sweep 90s. Often inspectors are not smart enough to know this either.
They do make 1.5" L.S. st. 90.
The drain technically should be 2" on the bottom part. Then then next, vertically wet vented portion is fine in 1.5.
Will it work as is, yes.
If your horizontal vent is less than 6" above flood rim of those fixtures, then it must utilize drainage fittings, so the horiz. to vert. pipe where it turns up must be a long sweep.

On the WC, technically, no pass. Again, inspector's call.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
1) Good question. Here's the code text. I don't think it allows any leeway for your situation, but you could ask your inspector for some flexibility. Otherwise, you'd have to find 2" (or more if drywall is still to be installed).


2) Not quite following the framing in your photo. Is that horizontal vent line at least 6" above both lavatory flood rims? If not, it needs to be raised.

As to the stacked san-tees instead of a double fixture fitting, if both sinks are lavatories, they are 1 DFU, and the would each have a minimum drain size of 1-1/4" and a minimum vent size of 1-1/4". That means a 1-1/2" pipe is sufficient for the short vertical wet vent between the two san-tees, an the stacked san-tees are fine.

Note that a horizontal 1-1/2" drain line is limited to 1 lavatory, while the vertical 1-1/2" drain line is OK for 2 lavatories. So off the bottom of the picture, the drain line will need to increase in size to 2" before or as it turns horizontal.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
Thanks so much for the quick responses! This has been very helpful.

On the toilet flange, I guess I'll just prepare myself to fail/have to open the wall, and be happy if the inspector allows/overlooks it. If I need to find some extra inches, could I get away with only removing a few inches from the bottom 2-4' of that left wall (leaving a very odd looking stick block out above) and saying that the clearance on the ground is 30"? Or does the clearance of the entire wall to the ceiling need to be 30"? I realize this is a very uncommon question, likely without a clear answer.

Good info on the vertical drain line for the lavatory. The plumbing was all previously done by a plumber and inspected/passed while remodeling the adjacent bathroom. The vertical to horizontal vent above does not have a long sweep 90 and the horizontal vent portion is not 6" above the flood rim, so this must have been overlooked. I should be able to replace the 90 with a long sweep without issue.

The horizontal under the floor is 2", so luckily I should be good there.

Once again, this has been most helpful. I really appreciate you both taking the time to help guide me forward.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Or does the clearance of the entire wall to the ceiling need to be 30"?
From a functional point of view, I would think you would want the 30 inches between the top of the shoulders to below the knees.
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
That makes sense. It would certainly be an odd alteration to make regardless. My reason for this is that this part of the wall is framed with 2x6s and is where a 2" vent pipe goes up to the roof. Id have to make a mess of the adjacent bathroom for these 2 inches. That or use a feintool (slow) or toe kick saw (sketchy) to "rip" these 2x6s in place. I've done worse, so I'll do what it takes.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
Good info on the vertical drain line for the lavatory. The plumbing was all previously done by a plumber and inspected/passed while remodeling the adjacent bathroom. The vertical to horizontal vent above does not have a long sweep 90 and the horizontal vent portion is not 6" above the flood rim, so this must have been overlooked. I should be able to replace the 90 with a long sweep without issue.

That 90 doesn't need to be long sweep. breplum was referring to the 90s in the two lav trap arms. I can't tell the sweep of those from the picture.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
Thanks for the correction. Neither of those 90s are long sweeps, so I'll fix that before getting it inspected.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
Thanks for the correction. Neither of those 90s are long sweeps, so ill fix that before getting it inspected.
Depending on the difficulty of raising the horizontal vent line, that might be worth doing at the same time, since presumably you'll be replacing the two san-tees while working on that area. [Unless you have a rambit/fitting saver type tool and end up reaming out the two san-tees to reuse them.]

Cheers, Wayne
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
I don't have a fitting saver tool, so I'll just be removing that vertical section and redoing it. Not too time consuming and cheaper than the re-inspection fee.

The difficulty of raising the horizontal would be largely in tearing out more plaster and lath and then the mystery of what is going on at the connection with the main stack/vent to the roof. The plumbers that replaced the original 100 year old plumbing put in ABS, but the material of the vent pipe visible in the attic is the old galvanized pipe. If this is something that could cause the inspection to fail, then I will probably raise it before the inspection. I'm guessing that the inspector allowed the plumbers to utilize the location of the old horizontal vent line, but wont assume that I will get this exemption again.

Thanks again!
 

Jadziedzic

Active Member
Messages
310
Reaction score
60
Points
28
Location
New Hampshire
You may want to reach out to the inspector ahead of time with the issue about the spacing at the tank (but sufficient clearance on the seat). They may well give you a pass on it. I had an issue with regards to spacing of an exhaust fan exterior hood being a couple of inches too close to the top corner of a window (32 vs 36 inches): I e-mailed my local mechanical inspector, explained the situation, and got a pass. In the 30+ years I've done DIY work on the house - with permits - I've always found our local inspectors to be very reasonable. I know that's not always the case, and consider myself fortunate...
 

Tuttles Revenge

In the Trades
Messages
4,132
Reaction score
1,410
Points
113
The UPC illustrated manual indicates that the center to center and front clearance measurement for toilets are some of the most important measurements in the plumbing code. But that seems a bit hyperbolic since those distances literally have Nothing to do with sanitation. I would call and ask the inspector for forgiveness or permission since it doesn't interfere with the Elbow room which isn't in the code or explained in the illustraded manual, but comes into play in spaces like showers needing to be 30" minimum.. In both cases, intrusions into that 30" space is allowed for things like towel bars and toilet paper dispensers.

Was there a toilet in that location previously? If so then usually you'll get "grandfathered" in as long at that location had been a toilet before that particular code went into effect. The UPC makes exception for plumbing installed to code back in the day that violates current code so long as it doesn't create a "Dangerous situation"

I find that if you're involved in a remodel and complying with the code 100% is difficult, a bit of a pass will be granted for such a tiny thing. Especially if its a homeowner doing the work.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
FWIW, as there are wall mounted toilets, I think there's a strong argument that the clearance requirement should only apply in front of the tank. That should help a little, although from your picture the obstruction does extend past where the tank will be.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
I will likely try to contact the inspectors again before having them come for the inspection. Good suggestion on that. They were helpful in answering some questions I had before I started the work. There was not a toilet in the space before, so unfortunately I won't be able to have this grandfathered in. The neighborhood I am in is all 100+ year old houses, with funky remodels done throughout the years, and the housing market here is very competitive. We are trying to make our 1000sqft 1 bathroom house work for our now family of 4, since we can no longer afford to upgrade to a bigger house, so maybe I can get some sympathy points with the inspector.

Here is picture of the small toilet temporarily mounted. I'll mentally prepare myself to have to modify that wall, and hope for the best.

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate it!

IMG_0579.jpg
 

Jeff H Young

In the Trades
Messages
8,753
Reaction score
2,164
Points
113
Location
92346
30 inches clear minimum 15 on each side that its only 28 makes it illegal the step in the wall helps the tight space greatly . old houses have some funky stuff. In my time in trade these are some of the toughest and non flexible issues , but Ive had to move toilets 1/4 inch before 14 1/2" is real bad . not to discourage , the better you can make your workmanship I think helps if everything he sees is lousy work If I were an inspector it would make feel that obligated to uphold code . if your greatly improoving this home with what I see as quality and functional but have this challenge with a serious code but its out in open not really safety or going to harm healthg or structure , If your a homeowner and not someone just trying to turn house make a quick buck he might be favorable. because who wants to allow substandared work just so you can dump the house. definately a tight spot but I can see and agree with allowing under proper circumstances
 

Sunrader

New Member
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Bellingham WA
Good point on the workmanship. I'm trying to do the best job I possibly can, and have already cut out and re plumbed a few things that I was not satisfied with, even though they would have likely not been an issue upon inspection. Part of me wants to just open that wall up all the way to the ceiling and get the 30", but free time is hard to find, so I may risk the reinspection fees if it means I may not have to spend a few days dealing with whats behind that wall.
 

Jeff H Young

In the Trades
Messages
8,753
Reaction score
2,164
Points
113
Location
92346
might be a reason for the jog in the wall. so taking 2 inches out might be a pain . Havent had a ton of write ups but never had to pay re inspect fees Ive heard the threat usually for calling them out and not being ready or failing inspection and not correcting the violation but call back for re inspection ( oh they love that) . one thing to concider is the completed work would likely be an improvement with the wall done right
 

Tuttles Revenge

In the Trades
Messages
4,132
Reaction score
1,410
Points
113
o I may risk the reinspection fees
The only time I've been slapped with reinspection fees is if we weren't ready for an inspection by the time they showed up. Failing an inspection and having to get a reinspection shouldn't be grounds for charging a reinspection fee.

I would try the ask for forgiveness route too.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks