Toilet Rough-in a tad short? Help?!

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Memmo

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Here are a couple photos... I didn't think to check before tiling because there was a toilet here previously (though I honestly can't recall how well it fit), but it appears that I'm a tad short on the 12" rough-in requirement. It looks to me like it whoever framed my basement set the rough framing at 12" to the center of the drain.

Anyone with enough experience feel like commenting on whether or not I'll be likely to fit a regular 12" rough-in toilet in this spot?

Also, the flange is either flush or slightly proud (perhaps 3/16) of the tile (again, I didn't realize until after it was tiled). Can I install as is or is there something else I need to do?

toilet-1.jpg


toilet-2.jpg
 

Reach4

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Anyone with enough experience feel like commenting on whether or not I'll be likely to fit a regular 12" rough-in toilet in this spot?
No sweat. It does not take a lot of experience for that one. If your number was 11.25 you would pay attention to which toilet you choose. With your closet flange, depending on the toilet, you be trying to shove the toilet a bit closer to the wall as you place the toilet on the bolts.
 

Memmo

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No sweat. It does not take a lot of experience for that one. If your number was 11.25 you would pay attention to which toilet you choose. With your closet flange, depending on the toilet, you be trying to shove the toilet a bit closer to the wall as you place the toilet on the bolts.

So... you think I'll be fine?
 

WJcandee

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So... you think I'll be fine?

So what is that, about 11-5/8"?

Most toilets designed for a 12" rough-in don't actually require a full 12". There is usually a designed 1/2" to 3/4" gap between the back of the tank and the wall -- but not always -- and sometimes even more. A while back, Toto came out with a combination washlet/toilet that required exactly the full 12", and made that very clear on their spec sheet. But most do not.

There are a variety of reasons for this, mostly to address the fact that things happen that can cause the rough-in to be not-quite-precise. And even if it is, walls aren't always perfectly-plumb vertically, so if it's 12" at the floor, and the wall leans a little into the room, there could be issues fitting one that did not have a designed gap between the back of the tank and the wall.

Your gap shouldn't be a problem for most toilets. If you have a specific one in mind, or if you want a recommendation, we can always help.
 
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Memmo

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So what is that, about 11-5/8"?

Most toilets designed for a 12" rough-in don't actually require a full 12". There is usually a designed 1/2" to 3/4" gap between the back of the tank and the wall -- but not always -- and sometimes even more. A while back, Toto came out with a combination washlet/toilet that required exactly the full 12", and made that very clear on their spec sheet. But most do not.

There are a variety of reasons for this, mostly to address the fact that things happen that can cause the rough-in to be not-quite-precise. And even if it is, walls aren't always perfectly-plumb vertically, so if it's 12" at the floor, and the wall leans a little into the room, there could be issues fitting one that did not have a designed gap between the back of the tank and the wall.

Your gap shouldn't be a problem for most toilets. If you have a specific one in mind, or if you want a recommendation, we can always help.

I'm looking at the Kohler Memoirs -- we really love the look and since its in the basement and rarely will be used, I'm not so concerned about some of the clogging and other "issues" I've read in some of the reviews online. Based on their specs, it looks like there should be a 1/2" between the toilet and the wall (given a 12" rough-in). So I think i'm cutting it real close. I suppose I can just get it and test it, and return it if it doesn't fit...
 

WJcandee

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I'm looking at the Kohler Memoirs -- we really love the look and since its in the basement and rarely will be used, I'm not so concerned about some of the clogging and other "issues" I've read in some of the reviews online. Based on their specs, it looks like there should be a 1/2" between the toilet and the wall (given a 12" rough-in). So I think i'm cutting it real close. I suppose I can just get it and test it, and return it if it doesn't fit...

You also have a little room to cheat it a little forward on the flange by how you locate the flange bolts if necessary; you usually have a 3" or 4" closet bend, and the opening of the toilet is going to be 2-something, so it doesn't have to be centered perfectly over the hole in the flange. (I would use a wax ring without a flange or insert in it when doing so, however, so you get the benefit of the whole hole, if you see what I mean.) Just dry-fit the thing when you buy it and you will be able to tell quickly. Toilets do vary a little in size, because they are baked-clay and shrink in the kiln, after all, and what they reduce to when in the kiln is going to vary from one to the other just a little (or sometimes a lot). (Toto uses a slightly-different clay formulation to reduce variations from one to the other as they come down the line.)

The Memoirs is a very-nice-looking unit. For reasons I have often discussed on here, Kohler is not my go-to brand. For comparison, here's a Toto with a similar street price and a similar look that I can personally vouch for working well: Toto Drake w/ New Tank Option CST744EN It has the benefit of as much as 1-1/8" behind the tank when on a perfect 12".

toto-cst744en-01.jpg;width=220;height=220;bgcolor=White
 

Memmo

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You also have a little room to cheat it a little forward on the flange by how you locate the flange bolts if necessary; you usually have a 3" or 4" closet bend, and the opening of the toilet is going to be 2-something, so it doesn't have to be centered perfectly over the hole in the flange. (I would use a wax ring without a flange or insert in it when doing so, however, so you get the benefit of the whole hole, if you see what I mean.) Just dry-fit the thing when you buy it and you will be able to tell quickly. Toilets do vary a little in size, because they are baked-clay and shrink in the kiln, after all, and what they reduce to when in the kiln is going to vary from one to the other just a little (or sometimes a lot). (Toto uses a slightly-different clay formulation to reduce variations from one to the other as they come down the line.)

The Memoirs is a very-nice-looking unit. For reasons I have often discussed on here, Kohler is not my go-to brand. For comparison, here's a Toto with a similar street price and a similar look that I can personally vouch for working well: Toto Drake w/ New Tank Option CST744EN It has the benefit of as much as 1-1/8" behind the tank when on a perfect 12".

toto-cst744en-01.jpg;width=220;height=220;bgcolor=White

Thanks for the detailed response. Do you think I need to put on a spacer flange given that the tile is essentially flush with the top of the flange?
 

WJcandee

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No spacer flange. They cause more problems than they are worth. Just once you have dry fit the toilet and are ready to install, stack two wax rings on the flange (or two Sani-Seals or a Korky Waxless Seal, both of which may be easier to work with). Carefully place the toilet vertically on top and carefully smush down (once with no rocking if you are using wax). That's all you need.
 

Jadnashua

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You might be able to get by with just one jumbo wax ring. When you get the toilet, place a straight-edge across the bottom, then measure how deep the recess is around the horn. Compare that to the thickness of the wax ring. THe wax ring MUST compress some, all the way around, to make a seal which means that the gap has to be smaller than the thickness of the wax ring so it can be compressed to make the seal. When a toilet flange is beneath the surface of the finished floor, then things get messier. IF two rings are required, Terry likes to use one with a plastic horn insert and one plain one - the horn helps to keep them both centered, but put that one on the top so the horn doesn't stick too far down. ON some shape toilet flanges, a wax ring with a horn on it can be too deep, and when pushing the toilet down, cause it to collapse, creating all sorts of problems.

You can often 'cheat' the toilet forward as much as 1/4" (and maybe more if the pipe is 4"), if needed to provide clearance behind on a short rough-in.
 

WJcandee

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You can often 'cheat' the toilet forward as much as 1/4" (and maybe more if the pipe is 4"), if needed to provide clearance behind on a short rough-in.

I'm a little concerned that one is asking for trouble if one cheats the toilet forward and also uses a ring with an insert. The insert makes the hole smaller.
 

Jadnashua

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If it the flange is recessed enough to need two wax rings, then putting one with the horn on top means that it won't be projecting down into the flange much...normally it should not be a problem, even if you need to install things slightly off-center. YOu can't go too far, as the slots in the flange won't let you, nor will the holes in the toilet.
 
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