Toilet not at the end branch

[Leroy Brown]

So, I finally have a question it doesn't look like anyone else has asked.

I'd like to do a bathroom remodel in a fixer upper next year and am in the planning stage. The current drain lines are all 3" cast iron from the top of the vent to the septic tank. I've already had a problem once where I had to clean out the tee where the stack turns up and I want to replace all of the 70 year old cast iron.

The problem is 1st floor bathroom toilet placement. The toilet sits directly above the waste line and is currently connected via a sanitary tee straight above the main waste line. I had 2 plumbers I know say this isn't code because the toiler has to be at the end of a branch line.

Pictures attached.

I'd rather not move the commode because there's joists in the way and the bathroom is already small and it's already laid out about as best as possible.

In the future I'd like to add a second floor bathroom and tie it into the stack, but for now I just want to redo the existing bathroom and get rid of this old corroding pipe.

And yes, I'll move all those stupid wires someone wrapped around the soil stack.





20170811_085553 by leroy brown, on Flickr



20170811_085526 by leroy brown, on Flickr

 

[hj]

THEY were not "plumbers" because there is absolutely NO REQUIREMENT that the toilet be at the end of the line. In fact, that is seldom the case, but YOUR problem is that the toilet is NOT vented, which makes it an improper installation.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Leroy Brown]

So, because the commode comes straight down on to the horizontal run, how should I best vent it? The horizontal line has a sink (galvanized pipe coming in from the right) and a bathtub (galvanized pipe coming in from the left) upstream of the toilet and upstream of both the sink and bathtub, the pipe runs towards the middle of the house and makes that turn straight up by the clean out. The vertical line at that clean out/ wye goes straight through the roof.

I'd like to tie a second, upstairs bathroom into that vertical stack in the future, and the plumber (that is to say, the guy at work who told us all he use to be a plumber and seemed like he had an idea of what he was talking about, and is one of the guys who said the toilet placement was incorrect) said I could tie an upstairs bathroom into that vertical riser and it would become a wet-vent. Is that incorrect as well?

 

[Jadnashua]

A wet vent is ONLY allowed within one bathroom group on a single level...there is no such thing as wet venting vertically stacked things. Generally (except for wet venting a bathroom group), once a pipe becomes a drain, it CANNOT be a vent. You can tie vents from below into vents above, but there are a few rules about where it can occur, for example, 42" above the floor of the other items being vented, or 6" above the flood rim (say of a sink)...the exact wording and placement, you'd need to double-check.

 

[Reach4]

A toilet attached to a stack needs its own vent? It is supposed to siphon so what will a vent do if the stuff downstream gets vented before joining the toilet flow?

 

[Leroy Brown]

So, I couldn't put a second bathroom in, using that existing stack as a drain and vent? I'd need to run a totally separate vent from the 1st floor bathroom and tie it into the existing vent, ABOVE the new bathroom?

But I'm still a little confused about how to vent the existing commode.

 

[Jadnashua]

So, I couldn't put a second bathroom in, using that existing stack as a drain and vent? I'd need to run a totally separate vent from the 1st floor bathroom and tie it into the existing vent, ABOVE the new bathroom?

But I'm still a little confused about how to vent the existing commode.

In the house I grew up in, they used a 6" stack, and there was only one vent line, and it went off of the second story bathroom...works fine most of the time, does NOT meet code. But, yes, EACH fixture (except in a wet vented situation that has limitations) must be vented, and a drain line is NOT available to be also a vent, so you would need to run a new vent on a new bathroom above anything on the floor above, and either run it out the roof independently, or revent it above the fixtures on that second story. Often, it's easiest to do that revent in the attic, but it can be made lower - generally, 42" above the floor of the drains above, or 6" above the flood plane of the highest fixture, whichever is higher. That would allow for a typical kitchen counter height of 36"+that 6".

 

[Leroy Brown]

So, this is an old thread, and I'll start a new thread if I don't get any replies, but how would I go about venting the commode in the above picture? Since the closet flange is straight up and there's only like 6" between the sanitary tee and the other tee right at the basement wall, where would I have to tie in a vent?

I've started pegging away at this bathroom remodel and I'll have to address this toilet in the next month or so.

 

[WJcandee]

Couple of things.

First, most of Maryland follows the IPC. You should find out what code your jurisdiction follows. When we talk about "code" on here, we usually mean UPC, which is kind of like a plumber's bible and is very detailed and specific. And my own opinion is that if you do it to that code, it's gonna work right and 99-times-out-of-100 be acceptable under the IPC, which allows a lot of stuff that some of us think is pushing it as far as whether it's smart to do it that way (even if permissible under the IPC).

So, here are two handouts that I (and others who recommended them to me) like, that explain a lot of how to do it right:

Plumbing-and-Trenching-for-Homeowners---2018 (klickitatcounty.org) This was recently redone and isn't as user-friendly as the old version. Kinda need to print it out now to view it right and use it right.

Helpful Plumbing Hints for Residential Construction by Bert Polk Plumbing Inspector Lincoln County
We call this the Bert Polk guide -- he is a well-regarded government plumbing inspector -- and it is excellent and practical.

You might be able to see a solution in there. Once you take in all the diagrams, this stuff starts to make a lot of sense.

As HJ pointed out above, it's amazing that people calling themselves plumbers would come up with such a dumbass comment as the need to put a toilet at the end of a branch line. It's just what somebody told them once, and that's the way a lot of people learn, but there's so much simple information out there, like these guides, that they really should have read.

 

[Reach4]

As HJ pointed out above, it's amazing that people calling themselves plumbers would come up with such a dumbass comment as the need to put a toilet at the end of a branch line.

I could see ambiguity as to what the end meant. I would think that upstream end or downstream end would avoid the ambiguity.
The downstream end is usually better, but not mandatory.

 

[MACPLUMB]

You use a Combination Y-1/8 bend for the toilet, then a second one behind that with the vent though the roof, with clean out
those secondary lines should be tied into wyes, using stainless steel banded no hub couplings not those cheap fernco's,
and I hope that that's CPVC water piping and not regular PVC pipe

 

[hj]

If you are meaning to "stack" the two combos, then the "second one" for the vent would be completely USELESS as far as being a proper vent for the toilet. A vent connects between the trap and its connection to the drain system, NOT somewhere "near" the connection on the main line.

 

[MACPLUMB]

No one behind on the horizontal plane, many old houses the toilet sets directly on the soil stack like this,

 

[Carlo1982]

"THEY were not "plumbers" because there is absolutely NO REQUIREMENT that the toilet be at the end of the line. In fact, that is seldom the case, but YOUR problem is that the toilet is NOT vented, which makes it an improper installation."

I agree with Hj. There is no suggested requirement that the toilet would be the end of the line. So the installation is the main thing here.