Toilet flange questions

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by TaylorG, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. TaylorG

    TaylorG New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    New York
    Would appreciate some guidance on closet flanges:

    1. I have a Sioux Chief SS flange that goes into a 3" pipe. The PVC pipe comes up through a tiled floor with an almost perfectly sized hole for the pipe. But....the closet flange has a ridge at the bottom, inside the SS metal ring, that prevents it going through this hole and leaving the metal part on the finished floor. Should I plan to make the hole wider, which will generate copious amounts of dust and weaken the tile, or can I shim the metal part of the flange? I'm tempted to ask a metal fabricator to make a ring that goes under the metal ring in the flange. Parenthetically, why is something that sells in the hundreds of thousands if not millions so badly designed?

    2. I have heard someone claim that when gluing plastic part of flange to (PVC) pipe, one should not prime it, I guess to make it possible to remove the flange later. The flange goes into rather than over the pipe, but even so, how advisable is this?

    3. In a different situation, I'm installing a flange on a basement floor. I know from experience the concrete slab will not take tapcon screws, and I doubt the tiles would survive trying to screw into them, so I am planning on 1/4" or 5/16" anchor bolts (about 3" long). Is that SOP, or will I have problems with the toilet sitting on the nuts on the anchor bolts? The toilet is a Cadet Pro (for the triangular tank in a tight corner).

    Thanks for any help.
     
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2012
    Location:
    New York, NY
    A couple of thoughts. You're using an INSIDE flange on a 3" pipe. Not as good an idea as using an outside flange, in terms of waste mobility. The norm on the size of the hole in the tile is that there should in fact be a little space around the outside of the waste pipe, not a "near perfect" match between the OD of the pipe and the surrounding tile. Not to say that people don't screw this up all the time, or even basically-fully-encase waste pipes in concrete, leading to a lot of workaround products, but optimally you have enough space around the pipe to use an outside flange on 3".

    Is the ridge on the 888-PTM hanging up on the hole? Or on the top of the pipe (fixable by making the pipe shorter).
     
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  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    There are a lot of plastic toilet flange spacers available that can go under a flange ring.
    I would not do that. If I wanted to be able to remove the flange later, I would consider a Sioux Chief Push-tite 3-inch closet flange. The 888-GPM used to have a stainless steel ring, but I think that has been replaced by a plastic-ring unit with the same part number.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/449676/ has the photo I took of the metal-ring version. This is the plastic one:

    [​IMG]

    I guess it depends. You have the toilet. You will probably be OK with the heads of the bolts. 1/4 inch anchor bolts seem like overkill as it is, so I would not be looking at 5/16.

    You have had Tapcons pull out on you before I guess. They worked fine for me, but concretes differ.
    [​IMG]
    Your toilet may or may not provide this much space.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2019
  5. TaylorG

    TaylorG New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    New York
    The ridge extends out beyond the OD of the pipe, so just cutting the pipe is not enough.

    I feel better about the flange going into the pipe rather than over it, TL says it should be fine with the Toto Clayton. Just can't believe the flange is not designed without this ridge, which serves no purpose.
     
  6. TaylorG

    TaylorG New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    New York
    Do you have an example of one of those?


    I've had problems getting tapcons into the concrete, that was laid down by a mason when we replaced the drain line. But maybe that's my only option. Doubt I could get flat head tapcons to go in without camming out, but I'll try with hex head.
     
  7. jadziedzic

    jadziedzic Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    You might consider using metal studs that are secured in holes in the concrete with an anchoring epoxy, with nuts threaded on the studs to hold the flange in place. If the concrete is iffy the epoxy will probably hold better than a Tapcon.
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/toilet-flange-spacer.66058/
    http://www.siouxchief.com/products/drainage/residential/closet-flanges/spacer-repair/raise-a-ring
    https://www.oatey.com/2371066/Product/Oatey-Closet-Flange-Spacer

    youtube.com/watch?v=8wCUoQGR39g

    Note that it is normal to leave a space around the PVC pipe rather than letting the concrete come right up to the outside of the pipe. That allows installing an outside flange.

    Philips screws are subject to camming out. I guess using fresh replacable bits and extra push might help. Its too bad they don't supply square drive or Torx. But still, the hex head on a 3/16 is not all that thick. The Tapcons I used were hex head.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  9. TaylorG

    TaylorG New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    New York
    Thanks, this Set-Rite spacer kit looks like just what I was looking for (no need for the flange extender, I'm not below finish floor height), only question is if it is the proper diameter:

    [​IMG]

    Re basement toilet: If I can't get the tapcon screws into the slab, then I'll drill 1/4" holes and put an appropriate adhesive in there. Thanks for the tip.
     
  10. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2012
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I don't. I do understand your concern -- you understand an inside flange to be kind of like a funnel that won't leak even if you screw up the bonding. Heck, some nitwit even told you to use an inside flange and not to bond the pipe. (I guess his work is never inspected.) At least I think that's what you're saying.

    When one goes inside on a 3" pipe, one is reducing the interior dimension of the pipe -- the pipe that's supposed to carry away the waste -- probably more than is technically-ideal. Do a lot of people do it? Sure. But query why the most popular Sioux Chief flange is the one that goes inside a 4" and outside a 3" -- same flange. Inside a 4", okay. Inside a 3"... It's gonna be fine the vast majority of the time, but I personally am more comfortable with the additional space afforded by an outside flange on a 3" pipe over any concern that there might be some kind of leak from an improperly-installed outside flange. If I didn't have confidence in my ability properly to bond the pipe, then I would get somebody to do it who would unquestionably do it right. Not like it's all that hard...

    Just want you to understand that the tradeoff you're contemplating, in my view, works the other way than you think it does...

    PS And don't put the flange in without bonding it. It's easy enough to cut out with the proper tool if for some reason you ever need to change it. If water backs up in your system with an unbonded flange, you are asking for a leak and a lot of work. You are assuming that water is only going to go in one direction, and I'm here to tell you that plumbing codes correctly make the assumption that frequently it doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  11. TaylorG

    TaylorG New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    New York
    Thanks, just to clarify: My plumber put in a 3" pipe. People on this forum said OK to install flange that inserts into that pipe. Mr Sioux Chief decided to put a ridge on the flange that serves no purpose except to complicate things. Some dude on the internet said not to prime the flange, nothing to do with the decision to have flange that inserts, thanks for the reality check on that advice.
     
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
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    New England
    I don't work with abs, so do not know if it also uses a cleaner/primer. On PVC, the cleaner does two things: removes any crud that may be on the surface and then, literally, starts to melt the plastic. Then, when you add the cement, it further melts things and has dissolved plastic in it to then weld the two pieces together when the solvent evaporates. So, at least in a PVC joint, the cleaner is a pretty important part of the process. Not sure on abs.

    The walls of typical plastic drainage pipe are about 0.25", so when you put an internal mount flange on a 3" drainage pipe, you're down to a hole of 2.5". Most toilet outlets are smaller than that, but not all. You never want to have a reduction in the size of the drain pipe. Plus, that last turn from the toilet to make the turn down into the drain is quite sharp on some toilet designs...narrowing the hole by 1/2" is asking for problems. The waste doesn't always turn a sharp corner well when it is smaller than it was designed for. Toilets are designed to work properly with a 3" drainage pipe, but that flange makes it a 2.5" one. Good luck.
     
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