Tips/Ideas on the best way to repair this JBlock for an exterior light fixture

[OldSalt]

I'm not sure how to make this repair properly (and without tearing the side of my house apart). I could use some tips or suggestions.

Original construction had an exterior light fixture mounted to a wood block sized 7.25" W x 9"H x 1.5", mounted over lap siding per the picture. (The wood block also had routered edges cut at a 45 degree angle.) A hole in the center of the block (maybe 2" wide) provided access between the ROMEX supply wires and fixture's wires, and held the wire nuts. The round light fixture box was left open, supplying the ROMEX wires. The block weathered and split, the screws holding the fixture mounting plate popped out, and the fixture came loose. I disconnected the fixture at the wire nuts, pulled it down, and tore out the wood block. Time for the fix.

The first problem is that the wire nuts were not inside a proper electrical enclosure, but inside the (combustible!) wood block. The second problem is that the electrical mounting box is off-center from where it should have been. It's crowding the window trim, making use of a standard commercial mounting block a difficult or impossible. The third problem, was inadequate flashing, and the now missing house wrap.

#3 is easy enough to resolve, if not "to manufacture specs", but water proof enough. I'll use flashing tape at the edges over the house wrap under the siding edge, and over the OSB sheathing, with a metal drip cap over the top of the block.

Resolving #2 "properly" would probably require moving the round electrical box to center. That would likely require removing the lap siding, cutting into the sheathing, and then fixing the damage done to the sheathing and siding. Then I could use a commercially available plastic mounting block designed for the purpose.

Alternative, custom solution for #2 (and also #1): I'd prefer to install a round plate cover over the existing box, leave the wire nuts inside that box, and run the fixture wiring through the plate cover. (Problem #1: What kind of watertight connector can be used for the fixture wires entering that plate cover?) And, of course, I'd cut out a new wood mounting block the same size as the original.

I'd have to cut a large enough hole through the replacement block to both (a) enable the fixture to center mount, with the wires passing through rear though the block, and (b) to expose the center of the plate cover and watertight connector, so that the fixture wires can enter the box through the box cover. (The cover would remain partially blocked, but visible under the light fixture.)

Problem #2: My understanding is that per code, all plate covers need to be exposed and accessible. With my alternate solution, the round plate cover would be hidden behind the block and the light fixture. However, I also understand that the exterior light fixture itself is considered an electrical box, i.e. the wire nuts could be behind that, if it wasn't sitting over a combustible wooden block.

I think my solution will work well enough, even if it's ... "inelegant".

Ideas? Recommendations? Sarcasm?

Thanks.

 

[bigb56]

I think I understand what you want to do. The box will still be considered accessible if it can be accessed by removing the fixture, unless the cover is pinned in behind siding which would then be considered inaccessible. Extension rings could be an option but then you'd be stuck with the same issue too close to the window as there are no offset extensions made.

There is really no raintight connector for what you plan, and you do not want to run the fixture wires through the wood block into a cover anyway, fixture wires must be 100% contained in a box and under the fixture canopy, they cannot pass through any part of the building like Romex can, so the original installation was in violation, an extension ring should have been used. You want to run a Romex out of the original box and into the back of another box and connect your fixture wires there.

Arlington makes plastic adapters for siding and some of them contain a junction box which you might take a look at. Alternatively you could incorporate a pancake into your new wood block and run the Romex from that to the old box. As long as you attach your wood block with removable screws it is still accessible. There is no need for any water tight connections or boxes/covers if it is all covered and caulked for weather.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[bigb56]

double post

 

[bigb56]

double post

 

[wwhitney]

Resolving #2 "properly" would probably require moving the round electrical box to center.

The size of the old block is apparent from the picture, but what portion of that does the "canopy" portion of the light fixture cover? If only a bit larger than a 4" round block, I agree you'd have to move the box. If a large rectangular area, it might cover the footprint of the existing box. In which case you could just use a round box extension of depth matching your mounting block.

As to moving the box, are you sure you couldn't do that without removing siding? Is it correct that the wires are coming into that box from the lower left as it appears? If so, I would think you could remove the box and possibly some sheathing that is already exposed, get the wires to stick out through the sheathing where you want it, patch the sheathing, repair the WRB, and mount a new round box on top of the sheathing whose depth matches the mounting block depth.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[OldSalt]

The size of the old block is apparent from the picture, but what portion of that does the "canopy" portion of the light fixture cover? If only a bit larger than a 4" round block, I agree you'd have to move the box. If a large rectangular area, it might cover the footprint of the existing box. In which case you could just use a round box extension of depth matching your mounting block.

As to moving the box, are you sure you couldn't do that without removing siding? Is it correct that the wires are coming into that box from the lower left as it appears? If so, I would think you could remove the box and possibly some sheathing that is already exposed, get the wires to stick out through the sheathing where you want it, patch the sheathing, repair the WRB, and mount a new round box on top of the sheathing whose depth matches the mounting block depth.

Cheers, Wayne

I think I understand what you want to do. The box will still be considered accessible if it can be accessed by removing the fixture, unless the cover is pinned in behind siding which would then be considered inaccessible. Extension rings could be an option but then you'd be stuck with the same issue too close to the window as there are no offset extensions made.

There is really no raintight connector for what you plan, and you do not want to run the fixture wires through the wood block into a cover anyway, fixture wires must be 100% contained in a box and under the fixture canopy, they cannot pass through any part of the building like Romex can, so the original installation was in violation, an extension ring should have been used. You want to run a Romex out of the original box and into the back of another box and connect your fixture wires there.

Arlington makes plastic adapters for siding and some of them contain a junction box which you might take a look at. Alternatively you could incorporate a pancake into your new wood block and run the Romex from that to the old box. As long as you attach your wood block with removable screws it is still accessible. There is no need for any water tight connections or boxes/covers if it is all covered and caulked for weather.

Thanks guys. I don't come to Terry's website often (RIP, Mr. Love), but every time I do, I get good advice.

After sleeping on it, and NOT thinking about it for nearly a whole day, my "backup brain" came up with one or two viable solutions, close to your recommendations.

I'm going to get back up there and remove that plastic box, or try to, and see what's behind there, and to the side. I'm assuming that it's attached to a stud. There's really no good (and valid) solution without moving that box. I can cut a square, centered hole in that sheathing, encompassing most of the hole where the box now sits, and patch it similar to how I've patched drywall, i.e. a split piece of wood slipped underneath, and screwed into the top and bottom, to provide a solid backing. The box will need to be replaced, ideally with an outdoor metal fixture box dead center, attached to what's ever available, including the sheathing and patch. String the Romex into the new box, ensure the box sits proud of the mounting plate at least 1/2" (or however deep the back of the fixture is, wire it up with the wire nuts properly inside the box, install the fixture, and the fixture itself becomes the cover plate to the electrical box. (Water proofing probably isn't required, but I'll look into it, to see if there's supposed to be a gasket on the front of the round electrical box - I think the come with the box in a kit, if I recall correctly.)

Now, CAN I do all that? We'll see.

The back up plan would be bigb56's idea of the pancake plate. However, Romex isn't outdoor rated. The only legit way to get a wire from a box on the inside supplied power by Romex cable, would be to attached an armored extension from the box through the back of the pancake plate. (I believe that's the case; not an electrician here.) However, I'd be comfortable running bare Romex through from the box to the pancake plate, provided there are proper clamps on the wire in either box.

When I started this, I have so many projects, I mentally said "I want this repair to be quick. I REALLY don't want to start another project." Life ain't like that. I even thought about just caulking up the split in the wooden block, and repositing the mounting plate to set the screws. I'd be done already. But, I just couldn't. Imagining rot, water damage, other really bad stuff, I pried that block off and ...well, here I am.

I'll post a couple of pix when I'm done. Could be soon, will definitely be .. umm .. well, sometime before winter for sure.

 

[bigb56]

Romex is OK to run into the fixture box behind the fixture canopy, it's the only real way to connect it to a fixture. Only in masonry walls is it required to be UF. When you seal the fixture, seal the top and sides but leave a weep hole on the bottom.

 

[OldSalt]

Well, I climbed up there and looked closely. No screw holes in the back of that box, so it's anchored by nails sideways into a stud. I'd have to cut the box out, working in the blind against what's underneath it (one Romex wire, at the least). Looking at the sheathing, there's a nail directly under the box, so I'm not sure if that's into a cross-member support stud, or what's back there. The nail can't be into a vertical stud, because the 4" deep box is sitting directly over it. I'd have to take a circular saw, set it to 1/2" deep, and skim over that sheathing around the box to try and cut out the OSB, then go after the circular box. That's a hill I don't want to climb.

So, plan "C". I'll install a new 1.5" deep metal hexagon box, mounted dead center to the sheathing. It will fit over the corner of the existing circular, PVC box. I'll put a PVC cover on the existing box to seal it up, with a hole drilled down in the corner. Then run the wires through that hole directly into the back of the new box through a wire clamp (can't get the Romex to pull out of the wall any further, but the available wire strands are long enough). I'll cut a hole in the center of the new wood mounting block to fit around the hexagon box. The light fixture bracket will screw into the new box, and light fixture itself will mount over the block into that bracket using the nuts provided. Easy peasy.

The toughest part of this little task might be prying back the lap siding far enough to get some Vycor flashing in there, attached to the Tyvek at the edges of that square hole, completing a waterproof seal over the OSB. Of course, this light is mounted about 12 foot high up the side of the house, on a sloped hill. (Why did I think that was a good idea. Lighting would have been just about as effective at 7-8 foot high, where I could get to that light easily. The dumb things I do ... ) It's a fun little task, playing "lineman" up on the side of my house at age 70.

 

[bigb56]

Why not just take a multi tool to that plastic box and cut it enough to free up the Romex, then pull the Romex over into your new box and just abandon in place what's left of the old box?

 

[OldSalt]

Why not just take a multi tool to that plastic box and cut it enough to free up the Romex, then pull the Romex over into your new box and just abandon in place what's left of the old box?

I thought of that. However, if I cut that plastic box out of there, and can't pull enough ROMEX forward, I'm stuck. And, Romex isn't support to be outside the wall in any case - that blue box is my protection there, i.e. it's technically still "interior" to the wall.

After researching electrical code (via A.I. - don't laugh!), the only configuration that would (might!) be code compatible would be is mounting a 1.5" deep metal box directly on top of the plastic box, i.e. box to box, with the 14 AWG wiring routing through from blue plastic to the metal box. However, the boxes will be off-set, so I'll put a plastic cover on the interior box to seal it up, and run the 14 AWG wires into the back of the 1.5" metal box via proper wire connector. Even that's not really to code. They really want a conduit or armored cable (BX or MC) between interior walls and anything outside. I thought I could just run the cable or 14 AWG wires through the block to a pancake box, but that transition would need to be via conduit or MC cable, not ROMEX or ROMEX 14 AWG wires. So the pancake box is out. I'll probably use some liquid flashing to ensure the box-to-box connection is water sealed (and yeah, the electricians and inspectors will definitely laugh at that). I think this will still be a better install than 90% of the residential houses out there.

So, I'm going to kind of "gundeck" this (Navy and Marine Corps term). I've beat this topic to death. The next post will be when I finish this. I picked up the wood for my block and a bucket full of parts over the past two days.

 

[wwhitney]

I thought of that. However, if I cut that plastic box out of there, and can't pull enough ROMEX forward, I'm stuck. And, Romex isn't support to be outside the wall in any case - that blue box is my protection there, i.e. it's technically still "interior" to the wall.

The general consensus is that if you have, moving out of the wall, sheathing, WRB, and a weathertight box mounted to the face of the WRB, NM cable can enter the back of the box without passing through a prohibited wet location. The box itself needs to be sealed from the elements, via the way the fixture in front of it is sealed.

If the cable entry into the current box is on the side towards which you wish to move the cable's exit from the sheathing, then if you cut out the existing box, you almost certainly will have enough cable length. If for some reason the cable jacket is too short but the insulated conductors are long enough, you can slip a cut piece of jacket from another piece of NM cable over the conductors and tape up the jacket joint.

As a cautious approach, you could drill a hole in the sheathing at your desired location and see what you can divine is happening to the cable as it enters the box. Or even cut out a smaller piece of sheathing. In a pinch, the existing box could be left in place instead of removing it to patch in the sheathing, and just a slot cut in the side of the box to free up the cable. The old box could be covered by a piece of plastic flashing (or a box cover) underneath your WRB patch. If it's empty, maybe fill the box with thermal insulation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[bigb56]

When we do box relocations and need more cable length we can often get more by pulling the staple, (there is normally one staple within 6" of the box). One of these works great and even if you can't see the staple you can reach inside the wall cavity and feel for it, then slip the hooked end under it alongside the Romex.

https://www.homedepot.com/pep/Rack-A-Tiers-Staple-Shark-Staple-Remover-52455/302024692?g_store=486&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&fp=ggl&pla=&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-APT-GGL-Multi-Multi-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-PRT-NA-NA-NBR-NA-PRO-NEW-All_Pros_PRT&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-APT-GGL-Multi-Multi-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-PRT-NA-NA-NBR-NA-PRO-NEW-All_Pros_PRT-20987292452-158752567615-2454349343224

Pulling a staple with a screwdriver or pliers almost always results in damage. If the staple is accessible in plain sight you can use your side cutters to pull each side out of the wood.

 

[OldSalt]

Didn't mean to abandon this thread, but between some rain, "analytical time" and dithering, this took a bit of time.

This is where I started out. In removing the caulk around the existing wood mount, I also cut through the Tyvek protective layer. Not a great idea. However, there was a bit of blackish mold in the lower right hand corner in any case, so there was an existing water intrusion issue. (It's been 10 years, so it's not bad.) I had to pry the block out, which tore up the particle board sheathing, weakening it. The yellow box in the picture below identifies the approximate position of the stud. Reverse 10 years back, during the build, and the correct solution would have been to add a 2x6 block along side the stud, and mount the box to the left about 1.5", and down perhaps 2". It would have been possible to do that now, i.e. cut out the existing plastic box, pull the nails securing that box (or bending them out of the way, cutting the particle board sheathing, removing most of that square patch, installing the 2x4 or 2x6 block (e.g. using screws and an impact driver/drill), installing an replacement old work box in the proper, centered location attached to that stud + block, and probably extend the box by at least 3/4" (to account for the siding, better 1.5" proud of the sheathing), attach the light fixture bracket to the box, wire nuts go inside the replacement box, and the metal lamp base itself acts as the cover to the box. However, then I'd still have the problem of installing a new mounting block with no sheathing available behind it, to use to secure it. Trying to do this would have resulted in having to remove at least some part of the lap siding (and those boards are 10' to 20' long), repairing the sheathing underneath, and still ... that little white board to the right shows another issue.
.

The following picture clarifies the situation. That area is about 12' up the side of the house, which itself is on a relatively steep grade. Just getting up there to work is a chore, plus I'm right handed. (Standing on that roof to the left isn't an option due to the pitch, and ... um ... my crippled left ankle). The window is part of the problem, as it cramps the mount area for the exterior lamp. The window itself replaced a door. I purchased an unfinished house in 2016, which was "weathered in" but not quite, and with numerous design and code problems. The existing exterior door was atop a landing to an interior staircase, running down the side of the house to the subterranean garage. That staircase had to be enclosed from the house, meaning there had to be another interior door to that landing on the inside. Two doors, opening on top of each other, atop of the stair landing, and those stairs involved all sorts of safety & code related issues. So, during renovation, we pulled that exterior door, and moved it to the other side of the house (where we added a porch and exterior concrete stairs, at least $15,000 in additional costs). Anyhow, this light is the original "porch light" for that door, which explains why it's mounted that high up, and close to the window frame molding. The roof left is for the heat pump enclosure (also added after purchasing the house - we made tons of mods to complete this house to code and practicality).

All of that explains why I wanted to do as little "tear out" modification as possible to fix this problem. Again, the original problem was that original wood mounting block for the light fixture, was inadequately protected and flashed. It weathered and cracked where the light fixture bracket screws connected to the block, and the lamp started falling off the wall. The secondary problem was also as previously mentioned, that the wire nuts were not inside a proper enclosure to begin with, but rather stuffed into the hole of the 1.5" thick mounting wood block. I needed to install a new wood mounting block, reinstall the light fixture, and get the wire nuts connecting the light fixture to power inside a proper electrical box, in the process.

First resolution attempt: I bought a 1.5" deep metal, octagon electrical box, intending to mount it to the wood sheathing, overlaying the existing round box, and a plastic cover for the round box. My intent was to run the existing wires (stripped 14 gauge ROMEX) from box to box, i.e. front of the round box to rear of the octagon box, with a proper 3/8" clamp connector between the boxes to protect the wire. I'd make a hole in the new wood mount the size of the octagon box, mostly for cosmetic finish, and attach the light fixture's mount plate to the octagon box. Unfortunately, there was insufficient wood sheathing (let alone, a wood stud or blocking behind the sheathing, in which to securely attach the octagon box. The wooden mounting block solved that problem, while cutting a hole in the block did not.

Final resolution: I decided to mount the light via a pancake light fixture metal box, mounted to the new wooden mounting plate. Not ideal, but solves the problem of wire nuts outside a properly enclosure.

1) To replace the missing ROMEX sheath, I used electrical wire heated shrink wrap to seal the 14 gauge wires from the ROMEX sheath out to the end of the wires. Not to code, but serviceable in a house that I'm sleeping in. I installed a plastic cover over the existing round box, and drilled a hole to allow the "ROMEX" shrink-wrapped cable through the box cover. Nope, no clamp connector, but the ROMEX is secured back inside the blue round plastic box. Also, this is a cover for an interior box, not a water proof exterior box. (Oh, well ....).

2) Waterproofing. I used ZIP flashing tape to replace the missing Tyvek, using a pry bar and putty knife to pull the lap siding away from the house, and push the ZIP flashing tape an inch or so under the siding to overlap the Tyvek on all four sides of the open area. I knew that all box covers need to be exposed for maintenance, and ... ummm ... yeah, so we're not doing that either. The wood mounting block will cover the round box underneath. However, I couldn't leave that cover completely exposed to water, either. So, I compromised, covering it with the ZIP tape, then cutting around it leaving the flashing tape covering the top and sides of the cover, sealed, but still visibly exposed (so at least, a future electrician will know that it's there). I also properly primed all cut edges of the siding (LP Smartside lap siding requirements). Since the ZIP tape isn't installed to specification (e.g. 1 or 2" overlap) because I couldn't reach further underneath the siding boards, I also caulked top and sides as well, to improve resistance to water penetration. (Note: this is an ASTM C230 elastomeric 50 year caulk, i.e. functionally equivalent to a liquid flashing product like ZIP).

3) Of course, it's not that simple. When I dry fit the pancake box to the wood mount block, mounted the light bracket, and the light to the bracket, the light fixture base sat proud over the wood mounting block. The pancake box was still too tall for that light figure base! So, I chiseled out space in the block for the pancake box to recess, and cut the fixture screws (which were then, too long). Also, I had to recenter the pancake box. (Inside the light fixture, there's a "day/night" switch at the top of the fixture's mounting pan, which I believed with conflict with the pancake box, so I mounted it off-center. I then discovered the wooden mounting block wouldn't align with the light fixture, unless the pan was centered. Thus, I had to redrill the hole in the center of the pan for the Romex wire. Anyone else bored with all of this minutia detail?)

4) Conclusion. Finished the wood mounting block and primed it, installed the pancake electrical box, installed the fixture's round bracket on top of that, pulled the wires through when I installed the wood mounting block, installed a piece of metal drip flashing above the block as I installed it, put more caulk around the outer edge before installing the block, secured the block with four appropriate screws, painted the block and siding the appropriate pretty color, mounted the light (finally!) while pushing the wire nuts into the box, caulked around top and sides of the light fixture's base, and then .... forgot to take that last picture. I was fighting weather and heading out of town for the July 4th holiday. ‍ Maybe I'll add a finished picture when I return (if for no other reason that it looks like a properly installed light, while this below, does not).

Summary: This ~~IS~~ a compromise solution. However, the result satisfies the ... ahhh ... "spirit of the law" in regards to code. Everything that needs to be weather sealed is weather sealed. The wire nuts for connecting fixture to power are enclosed in a proper metal electrical box. I'm fairly confident that this installation is weather tight, and will out last me (at age 70, most things will ).

Happy 4th of July, everyone!

 

[OldSalt]

Final picture, all done. Probably the best part of the result, was that after 10 years, I finally cleaned the glass for that light. It's twice as bright at night.