Three subersible pumps have low pressure

[cadillac_al]

Anybody up for a weird well story? Hi I have been a long time lurker and now first time poster. I have got a lot of plumbing tips here over the years. I always fix all my own stuff and never hire anybody to help me with anything. Anyway here's my issue. My mother calls and tells me she has very low water pressure. I go over and look things over and it has about 30 lbs. Not enough to trip the pressure switch so the pump is running 24/7. I figured it's 18 years old so it must be dying I order a Hallmark pump form Amazon and put it in.

The new pump seems to work fantastic for 9 days. Then Mom calls and says she has no water. It had 0 pressure. I played with the on/off switch a few times and it seemed to build some pressure so I went outside to listen to it and I can hear it running. I figured it must be a dud pump, motor is running but not pumping water. This well is 250 ft deep and most wells around here are 100-150 feet. The pump is down 220 feet. When I look down the casement I can see water about 30-40 feet down. I have no reason to believe that the water level is low.

I buy another pump and replace it and plan to send the Hallmark pump back. I put the new Zoeller pump in and turned it on and got low pressure again. I have checked voltage at the pump several times and have 240 volts. They act like they are getting 110 volts. I'm getting suicidal but I pull it out again. I lay it on the ground and turn it on and it works. I'm baffled. Some of the wiring is pretty old maybe it's playing tricks on me while it's in the water. I buy a new roll of pump wire and rewire it. I put it in and the same low pressure again. This has been a 3 week ordeal and my arms and legs are killing me from pulling these pumps out over and over.

Now my problem. I tried to pull the pump out today and I can't lift it at all. It is twice as heavy as the other 3 times that I pulled it out. What the heck is going on? We did just used the pump prior to this to fill some water jugs and it could only fill one 1/2 gallon jug. The other 3 times I pulled it out it probably was not used for at least 10-12 hours and probably sat overnight but I don't remember for sure. I'm thinking the water must have drained out of it the last 3 times by the time I went to lift it. If that is the case wouldn't the check valve keep the water from draining back? Isn't a leaking check valve a bad thing? I hope it leaks a little because that is the only reason I can think of for this pump and hose being so much heavier today. It is already free of the pitless adapter so there is no pressurized water in the line. What do you experts think is going on?

I also think the pump is not deep enough in the well and if/when I get this pump out, my next strategy is to measure the depth of the well and the water line level.

Do you guys think my pump and water line are full of water and that it does drain out slowly? It is a new Simmons brass check valve. I was stumped on the low pressure but now I am stumped about the extra weight when trying to lift it. Thanks in advance.

 

[cadillac_al]

Well, I just got a call from my helper that handles the water line and he says the pump is light now. Some water must have drained out of somewhere. That's good for me but I wonder if that is a good thing or not. Are these check valves designed to weep a little?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Do you guys think my pump and water line are full of water and that it does drain out slowly? It is a new Simmons brass check valve. I was stumped on the low pressure but now I am stumped about the extra weight when trying to lift it. Thanks in advance.

What diameter is the well?

That's good for me but I wonder if that is a good thing or not. Are these check valves designed to weep a little?

No.. However a hole in the drop pipe could cause reduced pressure and flow at the top -- your symptom. So look for that.
A hole in the drop pipe shunting much of the flow would make the supply current high. A restriction or low water would make the current low.

 

[cadillac_al]

I think the casing is 8". I have inspected the pipe very closely and found a couple scratches on it that looked like they could be cracks but I tried to squeeze them and flex them and they don't seem to be actual cracks. I'm going to take some measurements tomorrow and hopefully it will tell be the pump isn't deep enough. I suppose i could price some drop pipe. That is the only thing I haven't replaced in this adventure. I'm not following your info about supply current.

 

[cadillac_al]

Still thinking here, If water isn't supposed to leak out of the system, then 220 ft of 1" pipe full of water could be quite heavy along with a pump. If that's the way it is supposed to be then I would not be able to lift it out by myself. It seems to still have a fair amount of water in the pipe while I'm working on it and moving it around. I can't figure it out. It sounds like it could be the drop pipe after all. It definitely lost a lot of weight today and that has to be water weight.

 

[Reach4]

I suppose i could price some drop pipe. That is the only thing I haven't replaced in this adventure. I'm not following your info about supply current.

Current thru each hot will be high when the pump is pumping a lot of gpm. A clamp-around ammeter around one hot is the usual way to measure that. If you knew the motor characteristics, you could know if the current you read is at the high end or low end.

You should have a flow induce sleeve around the pump. That keeps the pump motor cooler.
You should have a helper or two to pull the pump hand over hand. You need a way to rest usually.

Normally you will want SIDR polyethylene pipe to fit over barbs. 160 psi minimum, and more if the pump may develop higher pressures.
Search Results for "sidr" at Menards®
I understand you don't have Menards, but the search can give you a rough idea of what is available.

 

[VAWellDriller]

You mentioned 1st you could see water 30 or 40ft down in the well and the pump was down at 220ft. Then another time you said you thought you thought pump may not be deep enough and you wanted to lower it???

Another explanation not considered for the light and heavy assembly is the water level. You said you pulled it more than once after the well had been sitting overnight or 10 or 12 hours (the water level should have recovered to static level). Then you said the time it was really heavy you had just been pumping (so water level would have been lower). The water level in the well has a great effect on the realized weight of the pump assembly..high water it gains a lot of buoyancy low water will feel much heavier.

Installing a high flow, low head pump in a well with a low pumping water level will produce the results you have mentioned. What model pump did you install, and what model pump did you remove from the well the first time?

 

[cadillac_al]

The original pump is a Goulds Bruiser model 7SB07422. I can't find the specs on it but it looks like a 1/2 hp unit that worked fine for 18 years until it got a low pressure issue. The two new pumps I put in have a low pressure issue. The last one is a 1 hp Zoeller 10gpm pump from Lowes. It is supposed to be good for 250-400 ft. I am concerned about the weight of the thing hanging off the pitless adapter by a 1" hose with 2 hose clamps on it. I can't lift it when it's full of water. It does drain down so I can lift it but I don't think it is supposed to. I may have a crack in the water line that is giving me low pressure and allowing the water to drain out. If that is the case and I fix the cracked hose, then I will never be able to lift it out. I can't find any winches that can hold 200+ feet of rope so I will have to devise a completely different way to lift the pump if it is supposed to stay full of water.

I see a 1" pipe will hold almost 6 gallons per 100 ft. that would mean I have around 13 gallons of water in my pipe that must weigh around 100 lbs. I plan to pressure test the drop pipe to see if it is really leaking. It is 160 psi pipe. I understand drop pipe gets 1/2 lb pressure per ft so I must have 100 lbs of pressure on the pipe plus the 60 lbs of water pressure putting me on the edge of its rating. Now I don''t know why my keyboard is typing in italycs. WTF? I might learn some more keyboard skills today too.

 

[cadillac_al]

I think I figured out the typing

 

[VAWellDriller]

It is absolutely supposed to stay full of water so if it is not then it sounds like you are on the right track. Plenty of folks hang pumps that deep and a lot deeper on poly pipe with hose clamps....just buy quality materials (brass or stainless...no plastic); don't worry about the weight on anything other than your back. I personally use stick pipe for anything over about 100ft.

 

[Reach4]

The original pump is a Goulds Bruiser model 7SB07422.

3/4 hp 7 gpm pump. Good lifting power.

I think the Zoller might be something like 12 gpm, so for a given HP, would not have as much lifting or pressurizing capacity.

The halmark might be 16 gpm or even worse. Not made to produce much pressure when lifting from 150 feet or so. So if the water in the well is high, pumps water and produces pressure. If the water in the well drops, available pressure drops.

Are you going to get a clamp-around ammeter?

 

[LLigetfa]

The check valve in the pump can sometimes leak down if there is not enough pressure pushing against it. That said, the standing column of water should provide enough holding pressure. It is possible that debris lodged in the valve seat at one time causing the water to leak down.

Have you considered a leak elsewhere? The downpipe or check valve is not the only place a leak can happen.

As a test, you could put a Tee with a ball valve and pressure gauge on the top of the drop pipe and partially close the valve to see what pressure you have there. Don't exceed the burst pressure of the drop pipe during the test. Burst pressure is much higher that rated pressure. If that test passes, repeat the test at the house. Make sure there are not multiple check valves as they will mask a leak.

 

[Reach4]

Have you considered a leak elsewhere? The downpipe or check valve is not the only place a leak can happen.

If we think the drop pipe is getting lighter due to water draining down, then the proposed leak would have to be lower.
On the other hand, if the pipe is full of water the whole time, but sometimes gains or loses buoyancy, as mentioned in #7, due to the water column being shallow or deep, then there need be no leak to explain the difference in lifting force.

 

[LLigetfa]

If we think the drop pipe is getting lighter due to water draining down, then the proposed leak would have to be lower.

Unless the check valve leaked down which is quite plausible. The OP has provided contradictory information as @VAWellDriller pointed out.

 

[Valveman]

As VA said buoyancy makes a lot of difference. With a water level of 30'-40' a crack in the pipe would only leak down to 30'-40', and the weight would not be much different. If the pipe does not stay full of water when disconnected, it has a crack. If the pipe holds water, the pump just cannot supply pressure from whatever depth the water drops to.

 

[cadillac_al]

OK guys, sorry to leave you hanging. I was so sore and tired Sunday and Monday I couldn't think about typing. So, after 3 pumps with the same issue I had to start using my head. Like Lligetfa mentioned, I had to start checking pressure. I have a spare Pitless adapter so I can plumb a pressure gauge and garden hose directly to the pump line. I get 100 lbs of pressure and can really blast the garden hose. Conclusion: pressure is not reaching the house. I got a 110 volt air compressor and plumbed my pressure tester to the water line inside the house and it will not hold any pressure at all; massive leak. I should have done that in the first place but I was thinking too simple and thought it was a simple pump r&r.

The problem that rally bit me was that there was a check valve before the pressure tank. This was holding pressure in the tank and not allowing me to see that the system would not hold pressure. If that stupid check valve wasn't there somebody would have noticed the pump kicking on more frequently, especially when nobody was using water. Then when I looked at it I would see that it was pumping up 50 lbs of pressure and it was leaking with nobody using any water. A check valve is not necessary inside the house anyway. If you are losing pressure in the water lines it needs to be fixed properly and not with. a check valve. It was probably put there for a theoretical minor leak down but just causes more problems than it solves.

Since I figured all this out I have been trying to line up a backhoe to dig a trench for me so I can find and fix the leak. I plan to start in the middle and cut the line and pressure test each end so I will know which end is leaking. Then I should only have to dig up half of the line. I am hoping not to have to dig across the hot top driveway. Thanks for helping me brainstorm this. I sure blew a lot of money by not testing before buying parts. A real plumber probably has a lot of fittings and fixtures to test the water lines before throwing parts at it. I had to learn the hard way, by blowing money. I hope this helps some other poor schmuck someday !

 

[Reach4]

Since you are digging anyway, would you like a yard hydrant along the path?
http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/specifications/hydrant-lengths/

 

[LLigetfa]

I plan to start in the middle and cut the line and pressure test each end so I will know which end is leaking.

Do you know what material the pipe is on the entire run? Would it have couplings or be contiguous? I would start at the well casing, suspecting a metal fitting connecting to the pitless.

Back in '98 when my well was put in, I had spec'd brass fittings but my pump man could not source a brass elbow to make the connection between the hose barb and pitless so he installed a galvanized one. I am waiting for the day that I will have to dig down to replace that elbow. Sometimes a bit of sediment will prevent the check valve poppet from making a good seal and will slowly lose pressure. Each time that happens I wonder if I will have to dig up that galvanized elbow. I used sand for the lower 6 feet and only used clay on the top so it should not be too hard to dig up provided it is not frozen at the time.