This Saturdays Lawsuit

Sylvan

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An email and a text came in Saturday morning about a client who passed out in the bathroom, and his face was against the steam riser the only source of heat for the bathroom..

He is still in the hospital, and the law firm asked if they have a case.

I said no problem, as I had one similar about 12 years ago, and I did prove negligence.

The question is

Any plumbers or fitters want to guess how I can prove there is negligence?
 

bigb56

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An email and a text came in Saturday morning about a client who passed out in the bathroom, and his face was against the steam riser the only source of heat for the bathroom..

He is still in the hospital, and the law firm asked if they have a case.

I said no problem, as I had one similar about 12 years ago, and I did prove negligence.

The question is

Any plumbers or fitters want to guess how I can prove there is negligence?
Subscribing but I do have a question, was he the home owner or a tenant?
 

Bannerman

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Any plumbers or fitters want to guess how I can prove there is negligence?
Assuming 'the law firm' mentioned, is working for the injured client, I anticipate your reasoning may be the lack of insulation or other protection around the riser, that should likely have been required originally, or identified as required during any subsequent inspection, repair or alteration.
 

Sylvan

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Assuming 'the law firm' mentioned, is working for the injured client, I anticipate your reasoning may be the lack of insulation or other protection around the riser, that should likely have been required originally, or identified as required during any subsequent inspection, repair or alteration.
Actually, the case I had 12 years ago, the piping to the radiator (supply) and the return were not insulated, and that was the energy code violation and also posed a danger to the rug rats crawling around (The mother on crack ) had no bearing on the case

On the steam riser, insulation was not required unless the tenant asked for it. Looking through several paragraphs of the codes relating to NYC, I found the following
NYC codes require steam risers in bathrooms (and all habitable/occupiable rooms) to be insulated if they are accessible and carry fluids exceeding 165°F.
Key requirements include:
Surface Temperature Limit: Insulation must ensure the outer surface does not exceed 60°F above ambient temperature.
Thickness: Under the NYC Energy Conservation Code, steam piping typically requires insulation between 1.5 and 3 inches thick, depending on pipe diameter.
Material Safety: Insulation must be noncombustible and meet specific flame spread (max 25) and smoke development (max 50) ratings.
Mandatory for Efficiency: Modern standards, including Local Law 97 compliance guidelines, mandate insulating all exposed steam piping to reduce heat loss and improve system efficiency.
Clearance: If insulation would interfere with system function, uninsulated pipes carrying fluids up to 250°F must maintain at least 0.5-inch clearance from combustible materials.

The document "27-809 insulation and clearances.pdf" likely refers to New York City Building Code § 27-809, which mandates insulation and clearances for hot piping in buildings to prevent surface temperatures from exceeding 60°F above ambient (or 165°F fluid temp) in habitable spaces, requiring proper spacing and insulation at penetrations through combustible materials, with exceptions for certain hot pipes if clearances are maintained. This rule ensures safety by preventing fire hazards from hot pipes touching combustible construction, specifying minimum 1/2-inch gaps for uninsulated pipes and protection for penetrations, referencing other sections like § 27-792 for detailed requirements.
Key Requirements from § 27-809:
Hot Piping Insulation: Accessible pipes carrying steam, water, or other fluids over 165°F in habitable rooms must be insulated so the outer surface stays within 60°F of the surrounding air.
 

Sylvan

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In other cases, the judges dismissed the cases. I will send the other verdicts to the law firm after my retainer check is cashed :)

The victim passed out, according to the lawyer, and he was against the steam pipe. I found the same thing in 2013, the case was dismissed.

I won cases where the same conditions existed, and the judgment was great for the law firms I work for, and in other cases, it was dismissed

It has to do with the presentation to the jury .

I learned something long ago.

There is no justice in our system; it is a case of win or lose Ted Kennedy killed Mary Jo and his punishment was 2 more years in the Senate.

Anyone else would be incarcerated and sued for wrongful death plus leaving the accident of a killing. IMHO
 

Bannerman

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I do not think a homeowner would sue themselves
You did not state who was to be sued for negligence.

Might possibly be the owner of a recently built property that is the injured client. His/her lawyer may have been asking about legal action relating to the negligence of the builder, steam fitter, plumbing contractor, developer or other involved party.
 

Fitter30

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Guess the riser ran from floor to ceiling? If from wall to wall should of had a fin tube cover over it. If thats the case if it's a main 5 lbs = 227° return 210° . First case was to heat the room( like a radiator) and secondary to provide path for heating the rest of the structure. Devils advocate.
This must be a old structure maybe built before the code to insulate ? I've seen very old buildings pre 1950 with exposed piping both ways feeding vertical risers and return lines not so much in a house but apartment and office buildings. Never thought about insulation for safety except in boiler rooms.
 
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Sylvan

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Guess the riser ran from floor to ceiling? If from wall to wall should of had a fin tube cover over it. If thats the case if it's a main 5 lbs = 227° return 210° . First case was to heat the room( like a radiator) and secondary to provide path for heating the rest of the structure. Devils advocate.
This must be a old structure maybe built before the code to insulate ? I've seen very old buildings pre 1950 with exposed piping both ways feeding vertical risers and return lines not so much in a house but apartment and office buildings. Never thought about insulation for safety except in boiler rooms.
Actually, in the early 1980's we still installed vertical risers in the bathroom for heat with an air vent on the top floor.

One pipe steam systems were very common as they saved a fortune rather than having a supply and return.

The insulation was not required unless the tenant asked for it, and still not required unless children are present

The piping to a radiator and away must be covered as per the energy code . Fin tube is not an option, as children can be burned as it is exposed
 

Sylvan

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Yikes, another scalding this time in a wealthy section of Greenwich, Connecticut (Belle Haven)

Beautiful area, expensive. The maid was showering, and a plumber shut off the cold water riser, then the hot one.

She was rushed to Greenwich Hospital. FIRST words out of her broken English mouth were "Do I have a case"?

I had a case like this in CosCob.. I guess NYC is not the only place where stupidity rules

 

JohnCT

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She was rushed to Greenwich Hospital. FIRST words out of her broken English mouth were "Do I have a case"?

That's pretty much the same thing as watching a powerball drawing and hoping. Honestly, that's the last thing I would be thinking of.

John
 
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