The Mystery of the Well Pump

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Mia Rene

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I'm hoping I've come to the right place for some help! I'm going to try to give you a lay of the land and where we are currently.

Situation:
We have a 100' well with a submersible well pump that is ran to a 40 gallon bladder tank, a pressure switch (without a manual lever) and a 20A dedicated breaker. The well pump has two wires and a ground wire. I have not found or seen a "control box" anywhere as of yet.

The problem:
At the end of December we lost power for an hour or so. When the power was restored, our water took roughly 1.5 hours to return. The power again went out last week and the water returned after 2 hours. Last night the power flickered and the same thing happened, again.

Here is what's been tested:
- There is power being sent to the pressure switch.
- There is an arc when the contacts on the pressure switch are broken.
- There is power at the well pump.
- The bladder tank was drained of water and tested for pressure. There was very little to no air that exited. When air was added to the tank, there was water on the valve. When the faucets were opened, the PSI dropped by 10. We are assuming the bladder tank is faulty and plan to replace it.

If we are going to replace the bladder tank that has been not working correctly, we are assuming this has been straining our well pump over this period of time as well. We would like to replace our well pump prior to failure as a result. Here's the big questions... I know that submersible well pumps are not commonly found in 120v and I cannot find a replacement pump in 120v. I have a few spare double pull breakers in the breaker box.

How difficult is it to switch to 240v to open up our pump buying options and get a bigger pump?


Sorry for the novel. I've "learned" more than I care to about well pumps and water systems and hope that I've provided adequate information.
 
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Reach4

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How far down is your water? There are plenty of 1/2 HP pumps that are for "110" (120) volts.

Converting to 240 is easy enough if you have space in the breaker panel. You will have to go to a 2 pole breaker, and that consumes 2 adjacent spots. The wire from the breaker box to the pump probably has a white and a black wire. The white goes to neutral. For 24o volts, the white wire becomes a hot wire. It has to be properly marked. I will let you look around to see what is considered proper.

Your current situation is odd. Why would this only occur after a power failure? I don't have an answer for that. You figured out how to check the voltage into the pressure switch, but you also want to check the voltage out of the pressure switch. The pressure switch itself may be a problem. On the other hand, it sounds as if you have that covered. A pressure switch usually has 2 sets of contacts. With 120 volts, only one set is used. You could try switching the wiring over to the other set of contacts. Some people with 120 volt supply will parallel the two sets of contacts.

Look hard for a control box. If you have no control box, and if there is power to the pump, you need a new pump. I expect the pump person could do the conversion of your wiring to 240 volts, especially if you have the breaker in hand. I guess that is probably subject to local laws.

The no-start is not caused by the pressure tank. That does not mean that the pressure tank is not a problem.

In pumps, bigger does not mean better. If the pump can keep up with the demand, more GPM is not good. More GPM means you need a bigger pressure tank, for one thing.
 
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Mia Rene

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I'm not sure how far down the water is. We planned to test the depth using the rock and string method, unless there is a better option.

If the wiring at the breaker box is changed, we don't need to run any additional wire to the switch or anywhere else, correct? In my uneducated mind, all I saw was digging up wire all the way to the well pump. o_O

I agree with you that the situation is odd. I should add that our house is only 10 years old and was built by the previous residents. Oh, the things we have found. I will look into the other contacts on the pressure switch and may consider replacing that first to rule out one other issue. The power failure is interesting to me too.

Where exactly would a control box be? Our well is a good 60-80 yards from our house. The only thing in the area where the bladder tank is the tank and the low pressure switch.

Our current pump is 9 GPM. We have a farm and a family of five so we do use a considerable amount of water. I would know how to tell if the pump could keep up with the demand other than when I need water it is there. Well, usually. ;)
 

Reach4

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If your system keeps the water pressure at the cut-on pressure or above, it has had enough capacity.

A control box could be at the well head outdoors, or it could be at the pressure switch. The control box converts 2 wires + ground to 3 wires + ground.

Where exactly would a control box be? Our well is a good 60-80 yards from our house. The only thing in the area where the bladder tank is the tank and the low pressure switch.
Right now the white wire does not get switched. It is probably just connected with a wire nut. For 240 volt (what the power is called) or 220 volt (what the pump is typically called) both power wires go through the switch.

Well people often have a device that sends a sound down the well and they can read the water height.

If you can use an ice cube instead of a rock, you are not concerned that the rock might fall off and jam the pump into the casing. Some people get an idea of how far down the water is by dropping ice cubes and listening for sound. I don't know how much time corresponds to how many feet.

You may be able to reflect the sun down the well and see the water surface.

I am not a pro.
 

Mia Rene

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We will check again for a control box, but have looked in the closet, under the house, and at the well without luck. Is a control box needed considering we only have two wires and a ground at the well pump? Would you only need a control box if you were using a three wire pump or does it serve another purpose?

Great idea with the ice cube. I'd not have thought of causing issue with the pump. At this point I feel like a stick of dynamite would be the best solution!

I genuinely appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. While not a pro, you aren't charging me a few hundred either.
 

Reach4

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We will check again for a control box, but have looked in the closet, under the house, and at the well without luck. Is a control box needed considering we only have two wires and a ground at the well pump? Would you only need a control box if you were using a three wire pump or does it serve another purpose?

A control box in this sense is only for a 3-wire pump. With a two wire pump you don't have a box with a start capacitor.
 

Valveman

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By using a 240 breaker, you can get up to 1.5HP and stay with 2 wire. Increasing the voltage to 240 means the wire can be smaller, so the same wire you are using for a 1/2 HP in 115V will probably work fine for a 1.5 HP in 240V. I don't see how a power outage could cause a pump to not come on like that. I think it is just a coincidence. It could be that when the power comes back on when the pressure is basically zero, the pump will draw higher amperage and is probably tripping its internal overload, which just resets itself after some time. It maybe reset itself several times before the pressure comes up where the amps are lower so the pump can stay running.

I believe all your problems, as is usually the case, is caused by cycling the pump on and off too much. So called "normal cycling" first takes out the bladder in the tank, which is why there is water at the schrader valve. Then the extra cycling from the waterlogged tank takes out the pump.

Reach is right about a larger pump cycling more than a smaller one. A Cycle Stop Valve solves all these problems. The CSV lets you install as large a pump as you may need for larger watering jobs, and still be able to use it like a small pump without cycling everything to death. And if you are replacing the tank, you can install a CSV, then you don't need a large tank. The PK1A as seen here would replace that large tank, allow you to use a larger pump, and still solve the cycling problem. https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/pk1a

I made a new video to better explain the CSV. It is probably the last thing you will need to learn about pumps, then you will never have to think about or worry about your water system again.

 

Mia Rene

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Thank you for your explanation, Valveman. I was struggling to understand how one could just convert to 240v and not have to change wiring as well. We learned that our well was installed in 2011. I surely would like our fix to last us more than 6 year the next go around. Because this hasn't always been the case with our well and power issues, is it reasonable to think that the pump is getting worn and tripping the internal overload more quickly than it had in the past?

If we were to go the CSV route, would we need to upgrade our pump now as well or would we be able to install the CSV in our current configuration and upgrade the pump at a later date?

Also, could we use this valve and install it within the well casing to benefit from the CSV at our other spigot sites? If we went this route, could we still install a smaller pressure tank in the house and have the same benefits as described in the video?

This has been incredibly helpful!
 
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Valveman

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As long as your pump is still working you don't have to replace it. The CSV will just keep it from being abused any further.

And yes you need the CSV125 in the well if you have spigots between the well and the house/pressure tank. The small tank is still fine with the CSV12550-1. We even have a kit for that you can see here. https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/pk125-pside-kick-kit

It would look like one of these.
pk125 applications.jpg
 

Texas Wellman

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Have you measured the voltage? I seriously doubt you really have 110v to the pump. Sometimes a breaker looks like 110 but really is two breakers in one. Also sometimes the other breaker isn't adjacent to the first one.
 

Craigpump

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Have you measured the voltage? I seriously doubt you really have 110v to the pump. Sometimes a breaker looks like 110 but really is two breakers in one. Also sometimes the other breaker isn't adjacent to the first one.


Especially with a system that new.
 

Mia Rene

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As long as your pump is still working you don't have to replace it. The CSV will just keep it from being abused any further.
View attachment 37749

Thank you, Valveman. I think we are going to go that route.

Have you measured the voltage? I seriously doubt you really have 110v to the pump. Sometimes a breaker looks like 110 but really is two breakers in one. Also sometimes the other breaker isn't adjacent to the first one.

We did measure the voltage which was roughly 117 across the black and white wires with a multi meter. While our system is new, the previous residents and builders had a way of skirting costs. We called to confirm the details on the well and pump with the original installers.
 
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