The myst of the best toilet

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Hugo Lam

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I'm thinking of changing the old American Standard champion-4 in my main bathroom. Currently, I'm looking for brands for replacement. I heard TOTO or Kohler is pretty good. Does anyone have any idea?
 

Gary Swart

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Although Kohler, AS, and most of the other major manufactures have improve their products' performance since low flow toilets became required over 20 years ago, Toto is still way ahead of them. Toto has toilet models to fit virtually everyone's taste in style, but all of them from the most modest priced ones to the very expensive designer ones do the basic job that we all want in a toilet, and they do it very well. Toilets have few parts that every need replacing, but those for Toto are inexpensive and readily obtainable at almost any hardware store. This is not always the case with other brands.
 

Hugo Lam

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Thanks guys, great advice.

Gary Swart- Agree. I read some articles recently and find out too much information. I just want to get a new toilet and there are like one, two-piece toilets, different size... All I need is a model and buy it. Grrrr...

fullysprinklered- Sorry. What do you mean?
 

Reach4

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fullysprinklered- Sorry. What do you mean?
He meant to say, in a humorous way, that the toilet forum has a lot of posts with relevant information, and if you had looked through a month or two of posts you would have found a lot of relevant information.

Incidentally, you might find the search box above to be useful too.

Why do you want to replace your Champion?
 

Treeman

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I love this site and have learned so much about toilets, water heaters, and water softeners. There are numerous contributors that spend quite a bit of time assisting us non-trades people and I thank them.

Having said that, it is VERY difficult to research toilet quality. This site is so pro Toto, that it is difficult to access the comments due to the obvious bias. The Consumers Report data is viewed as wrong. In my internet research, I Googled "(Insert Brand) toilet problems" and all the brands seem to have/had problems and each brand has some definite haters.....even Toto. It is very difficult to evaluate "internet amplification"....just a handful of contributors repeating the same thing and it soon becomes Gospel. This happens all across the interweb, not just here.

I am at a loss. I used to see a lot of Kohler products in commercial applications, which the layperson equates as high quality. Now, I see almost no mention of Kohler toilets in my internet searches. I wonder if some of the "lesser named" brands actually have high quality products.

Any and all comments welcomed.
 

Terry

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It's not uncommon to find defects in most toilets. It's almost impossible to find them on TOTO. They use a drier clay to start with. When toilets are formed, they are quite a bit bigger than the finished size when they come out of the kiln. A lot can happen as clay dries. TOTO has also been very good at pulling the bad stuff and not shipping it.
Consumer Reports will look at one toilet. I look at thousands.
1 vs 1000's
Consumer Reports tests with things you aren't even supposed to put in a toilet. The data from that isn't real world.
Consumer Reports doesn't seem to care about noise levels. Women and children do. I've gone to homes where they put ear muffs on the children before the toilet gets flushed. Yep, another number one rating from CR.
Consumer Reports in my opinion hasn't been good when it comes to the parts that will need replacing down the road.
I typically can spot those issues before they get reported. When I was shown the first Champion, the one rated 1# by Consumer Reports I laughed and pointed out that the cam timing system was going to fail shortly. In less than two years that pulled the flush tower and came out with a replacement.
One another brand came out with a non-standard 3-1/4" flapper I suggested to them that they would have been better off going smaller than that, and making sure it was stiff enough to hold up. The 3-1/4" flapper was redesigned and replaced with something smaller and stiffer.

Most of what I sell is becoming repeat sales. Homeowners buy from me and when they move buy again. I have plenty of very loyal repeat customers.
I do plumbing as a living, not a hobby. I have received my share of letters from Consumer Reports asking me to quit writing about what I do for a living. I don't really care what the lawyers want though, I prefer to share what works.


Treeman, you're free to buy whatever you like. Because of my reporting, all the brands have improved.

My daughter recently bought a home with Consumer Reports Best Buy dual flush toilets from Home Depot.
After six months she asked if I could replace them all. We did. She's happy now.
 
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Treeman

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Thank you very much, Terry. Please understand that I am not calling you out.......well, yes, I guess I am, LOL. I am just sharing my experience as a lay person and the difficulty trying to decipher all of the internet information.

I actually concur with your opinion of Consumers Report. I read their reviews and try to analyze the information for what it is, and isn't. I remember their past endorsement of Bose speakers and the audiophile forums that blasted them. Just recently while researching SUV's, they chose the Subaru Forester as the best in class, completely ignoring the class action oil consumption issues that caused owners all kinds of grief. Or.....their low ranking of certain vehicles due to infotainment (radio) problems, ignoring more important factors (i.e.- drivetrain).

A person sees the You Tube videos showing an American Standard flushing better than a Toto.....then you see the video was put up by AS and you have to question the authenticity of the test.

The American Standard 1.6 I bought from Home Depot in 1996 continues to work flawlessly. BUT, I had to return the first bowl because it was cast so out of level and I refused to use shims to correct poor casting (I don't mind shims for uneven floors). HD nearly kicked me out of the store because I had 8 bowls opened up on the floor, checking with a level to find one that was cast level (picture that).

I "imagine" that most companies are catching up on good performance??? Maybe not??? It seems that quality control and customer service are very important to consider now a days.

Hey....once again, thank you for your candid opinions. You DO give us lay people a valuable resource to compare brands. I am about to pull the trigger on some toilets for my workplace. I've chosen TOTO, but am trying to find convincing evidence to choose otherwise (no success yet). I'm one of those types that borders on "analysis paralysis", but it is a fun endeavor. My excellent experience recently buying a new water heater and softener was entirely due to the education I received here.

Take care.
 

Hugo Lam

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Most of what I sell is becoming repeat sales. Homeowners buy from me and when they move buy again. I have plenty of very loyal repeat customers.
I do plumbing as a living, not a hobby. I have received my share of letters from Consumer Reports asking me to quit writing about what I do for a living. I don't really care what the lawyers want though, I prefer to share what works.

Wow, that's a real man's words.
Thanks Terry for your reply. But how can I make a better judgement regarding toilets.
 

FullySprinklered

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Going back on a job just irritates the living snot out of me. When the water savers first came out, the standard procedure would be to install the available 1.6 flush toilets in new houses, then go back and snatch them out and install 3.5s after the CO. The early low flush toilets were that bad.

Toto was the first toilet on the market, to my knowledge, that was designed from the start to get the job done with only 1.6 gallons of water. They worked.

I started recommending them to our customers in good faith because they did what they were supposed to do, but also it saved me the aggravation of having to go back and hump all the toilets back out of the house.

Not the only good toilet on the market, but in my world it was first, and earned my loyalty early on. I've installed them in two houses of my own, and recommended them to quite a few customers over the years. Last new toilet in my house was an American Standard Cadet III, picked out by my wife. Gotta keep the peace.
 

Hugo Lam

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Going back on a job just irritates the living snot out of me. When the water savers first came out, the standard procedure would be to install the available 1.6 flush toilets in new houses, then go back and snatch them out and install 3.5s after the CO. The early low flush toilets were that bad. Toto was the first toilet on the market, to my knowledge, that was designed from the start to get the job done with only 1.6 gallons of water. They worked. I started recommending them to our customers in good faith because they did what they were supposed to do, but also it saved me the aggravation of having to go back and hump all the toilets back out of the house. Not the only good toilet on the market, but in my world it was first, and earned my loyalty early on. I've installed them in two houses of my own, and recommended them to quite a few customers over the years. Last new toilet in my house was an American Standard Cadet III, picked out by my wife. Gotta keep the peace.

Thanks for reply my article man. Mean a world to me. And yes, people keep saying TOTO is the best . I gues I'll give it a shot.
 
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