Taco pump leaking

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spete112

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I hope this is a acceptable spot for my question being it is part of my hydronic system. I am currently using my boiler for heat as well as domestic hot water through a home made heat exchanger and a normal 80 gallon electric water heater. I noticed my boiler pressure was down to five pounds one day so I top off the pressure and started looking for leaks. I did see some tell tail sign of a few leaks of crap around a few fittings. I did not have time to deal with it for a few days so I just turned off the boiler and turned on the electricity to my water heater. After doing that i noticed a big wet spot on the floor that was not there before. So either the heat was causing the drip to disapate or after the boiler stoped running and cooled off it started leaking. The interesting thing about that is just using the boiler in the summer of domestic hot water my boiler system always had a chance to cool off between cycles. The pump in question is a Taco 0011 B4F 1/8 HP. The water is coming from between the motor and the housing. I did try and tighten up the four bolts. They were fairly snug to begin with but I was able to turn then a little. I did see they sell some kind of cartridge repair kit for this pump that has some O rings with it. Does anyone have and idea what parts I need to stop this leak or should the whole pump be replaced. Thank you and I apologize for the long winded question.
 

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If the seal is blown/failing you can either buy a new pump or replace the cartridge. (It's not always cheaper to buy the cartridge.) The street price of a new -011 or -011 cartridge is often more than the street price of a programmable 1/25 HP "smart" pump or an ECM drive -007 that would do the job of running an indirect just fine, using less power. What was the rational fore using such a monster pump for running an indirect?

Or is the -011 the heating system radiation pump on a high-volume high flow system, the indirect being just one zone among several?
 

spete112

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If the seal is blown/failing you can either buy a new pump or replace the cartridge. (It's not always cheaper to buy the cartridge.) The street price of a new -011 or -011 cartridge is often more than the street price of a programmable 1/25 HP "smart" pump or an ECM drive -007 that would do the job of running an indirect just fine, using less power. What was the rational fore using such a monster pump for running an indirect?

Or is the -011 the heating system radiation pump on a high-volume high flow system, the indirect being just one zone among several?
Thanks for your reply. I did find that I could order a o ring for that pump. I will give that a try. The pump is only three years old and should still have life left in it. To answer your question that pump is just circulating the water through the boiler and bringing the return back. I have 6 smaller grundfoss pumps for each of my zones that turn on when calling for heat.
 

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So it's the primary pump on a primary/secondary configuration? Why such a high flow pump?
 

spete112

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i don't know to be honest with you what do you recommend for a primary pump if I would need to change it. The ID of the pump matches the boiler however I know that does not have much to do with the volume
 

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I'm not sure what "...ID of the pump matches the boiler..." means. Inner diameter?

Can't even take a WAG at pump selection without a LOT more information on the system (boiler model number, type and amount of radiation, number of zones & radiation per zone, etc.) But there are 3 story apartment buildings in NYC heating with a single boiler and one -011 driving all heating flows. Sounds like you have a pump per zone, plus the -011 on the boiler, which makes me think your system is probably sub-optimally oversized and over-pumped (an all too common state of affairs.)

If/when it comes down to needing outright replacement, it's probably worth doing at least some of the napkin math on the hydronic design. In the mean time, measure the difference in entering water and output water temperature at the boiler under a few operating conditions (say, when serving only the indirect, serving one small zone, vs. all zones calling for heat). If it's always under 10F difference in-to-out it's being ridiculously over-pumped.
 

spete112

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I'm not sure what "...ID of the pump matches the boiler..." means. Inner diameter?

Can't even take a WAG at pump selection without a LOT more information on the system (boiler model number, type and amount of radiation, number of zones & radiation per zone, etc.) But there are 3 story apartment buildings in NYC heating with a single boiler and one -011 driving all heating flows. Sounds like you have a pump per zone, plus the -011 on the boiler, which makes me think your system is probably sub-optimally oversized and over-pumped (an all too common state of affairs.)

If/when it comes down to needing outright replacement, it's probably worth doing at least some of the napkin math on the hydronic design. In the mean time, measure the difference in entering water and output water temperature at the boiler under a few operating conditions (say, when serving only the indirect, serving one small zone, vs. all zones calling for heat). If it's always under 10F difference in-to-out it's being ridiculously over-pumped.
Yes it is you a correct in that I have the zone pumps one the lowest setting and all the ball valves just cracked in a effort to get the return cooler to increase the efficiency. It helped a little but not much
 

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If you're over-pumping the hell out of the primary loop increasing the delta-T on the zone loops isn't going to have a huge benefit. What's the delta-T on the boiler?
 

spete112

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If you're over-pumping the hell out of the primary loop increasing the delta-T on the zone loops isn't going to have a huge benefit. What's the delta-T on the boiler?
I honestly don't know once I get my o ring and leak fixed I will turn the boiler back on and see. I do have temp gauges an all my return and know the drop is not much on any of the runs. Maybee five degrees if I al lucky. Slowing the zone down did help a little with the return but not much. Even on my domestic hot water side I went from 12 feet of tube exchanger and double it to 24 feet and the return is a degree or two cooler but not much.
 

spete112

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Dana you really have my interest with the ECM pumps. I called Slantfinn today and asked them about changing the primary pump. I did not remember that the pump came with the boiler and they told me not to even think about restricting the water on the primary. I am all for going with what the manufacturer said. However my question to you is do you see any benefit changing some of the secondary pumps. I know my domestic HW zone runs a lot my garage heater runs quit a bit when it gets around 0 outside and the bedrooms that have carpet in them take a lot longer to warm up. The other zones don't run enough to worry about them. Would s person see a payback of spending over 500 on new delta t pumps?
 

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Any "payback" depends on three things:

*The price of electricity,

**The duty-cycle of the pumps,

***Any improvement in combustion efficiency one gets from being better able to control the delta-T at the boiler.

On an oversized condensing boiler operating near the condensing/non-condensing cutoff, the latter may be a bigger factor than the other two.

What model Slantfin, and where does your fuel-use based 99% heat load calculation come in at, approximately?
 

spete112

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My boiler is a LX-90. I am not sure about your next question. I did click on your link and am guess you are asking the temp that the boiler is set at in relation to out side temp. I get the boiler set at in relation to the out side temp. Right know I have it set at 180 for the summer month for the domestic hot water. When heating season starts I start at 140 degrees. Which I will admit is to warm except I need that temp for my domestic hot water. After that I will increase the temp only when needed when the boiler can not keep up with heating. I do have a out door sensor but I feel I can do a better job manually. Please let me know if I am way off on understanding your last question.
 

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The delta-T (=temperature difference) I'm asking for is the difference in temp of the water entering the boiler compared to it's output tempeature. this has to be measured at the boiler, in the loop driven by the primary pump, not the return water from the zones and what's being delivered to the zones.

The reason this is important with condensing boilers is that if the water entering the boiler is warmer than ~125F, you won't get better than 87% combustion efficiency out of it. So if you have a small delta-T , say 10F and the output is 140F, the entering water temperature is 130F, and you won't get condensing efficiency out of it. The water returning from radiation might be 120F, but if the primary loop is being over-pumped, the mixing with the boiler's output raises the entering water temperature too much. Most boilers won't hit the 95% range until the entering water temp is under 120F.

Even though it's the smallest in their lineup, the LX-90 is way oversized for most homes in the US. If you have some mid winter gas bills with exact meter reading dates and amounts, you can look up the weather data for those usage periods and derive a linear constant of heat load per degree-F, (below 60-65F, the typical heatng/cooling outdoor temperature balance point rangef or houses in the US) and derive the heat load at the 99th percentile temperature bin for the location. Sounds complicated, but it's not really. It's basically:

1: Take the fuel used during the meter-reading period, multiply times the boiler's efficiency to come up with a total BTU number.

2: Look up the heating degree-day (HDD) data for your location for that period, and divide the BTU per HDD.

3: Divide the BTU per HDD by 24, to come up with BTU per degree-hour.

4: Look up the 99% outside design temperature for your location, and subtract it from your HDD base temperature (either 65F or 60F- whatever you used when looking up the HDD), for the number of heating degrees.

5:Multiply the BTU per degree-hour times the number of heating degrees, and you have the implied heat load.

If you do it for both base 60F and base 65F HDD you'll bracket the actual heat load fairly reasonably. Only in the rarest of cases will the real heat load be much higher than the bigger number, or much lower than the lower number. Most of the time it'll be somewhere in between.

The minimum modulated output of the LX-90 is about 23,000 BTU/hr, which is well over half the heat load of most reasonably tight homes, and WAY more than the load of individual zones of multi-zoned houses. From an efficiency point of view that's OK if the radiation is high volume radiators, but too often a short-cycling disaster with fin-tube baseboard. For a primer on how to make that assessment, read this.

Adjusting the outdoor reset curve takes some time and patience, but if you have enough radiation to operate in the condensing zone without short-cycling the boiler, it's WELL worth it! Most boilers are designed to kick up the output temperature when serving a hot water heater zone, and is not affected by the outdoor reset temperature. This is true of the LX-90 as well, if installed correctly. On page 32 of the manual you'll see that the domestic hot water temperature and space heating temperature can be set independently.

If you run the numbers to come up with a heat load at some cold temperature and measure up the total radation, I can walk you through how to set up & adjust the outdoor reset curve. Most installers won't/can't take the time to fully tweak it in, but YOU can. And when you do it ends up operating at the highest possible comfort & efficiency that the system can deliver.
 
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