Switched Wiring

[Thomas K]

Here are photos of the first floor room that holds breaker panel. I can't think of anywhere to install a subpanel but on other side of window in photo 1910 and 1902, or in the interior wall in photo 1900. Freezer will sit in corner of photo 1905. I am not even sure the wall framing is adequate. It was drilled with countersunk holes and screwed into the cement block. I will upload photos of kitchen in separate post so things don't get mixed up.

Cables for kitchen outlets come in from attic area, photo 1920, so will difficult to access. I did some more outlet testing after work today. I was wrong about the refrigerator outlet, as it's on a dedicated circuit. Dining room outlets are on different circuit than kitchen outlets.

Kitchen light (has a ceiling fan in kitchen), dining room light (also ceiling fan), fluorescent over kitchen sink, 2 floodlights outside door, dishwasher, and convection oven outlet (which is supposed to be wiring for stove exhaust hood) are tied into one 20 amp breaker, 14-2 NM wire.

Three non-GFCI outlets around kitchen counter are on one circuit.

I have three legs left in the original breaker box, one of which is earmarked for a dedicated freezer outlet.

 

[Thomas K]

Here are images of kitchen area, refrigerator space and pantry I drywalled. I don't think there's a place in the kitchen for panel. There's an old electric wall oven I didn't photograph, and an electric cooktop dropped into the countertop. wall oven, cooktop, and convection oven will all be replaced with a modern six-burner gas oven.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I have three legs left in the original breaker box, one of which is earmarked for a dedicated freezer outlet.

What is the make and model of your breaker box?

 

[Thomas K]

What is the make and model of your breaker box?

I'm not sure, Reach4. I can find out tomorrow, as I'll be in town.

While on the subject of switch wiring, I bought a set of these Globe Electric 6" LED integrated recessed lights for the bathrooms. They're 12 watts each, Energy Star, IC, and wet-rated. They've been okay so far, and I installed them over a year ago. I purchased them because they can be mounted over a bathtub/shower. My worry is that they might not last, and I'm wondering if I'd be better off to install permanent IC cans in the bathroom with replaceable bulbs while the ceiling is still uninstalled.

My worries may be unfounded, as it seems there are a lot of 6" LED lights out there. I just don't want to put these in and not be able to access them easily if they fail. Thoughts?

 

[Jadnashua]

If you really have 14g wire on a 20A breaker, you need to address that as a 20A circuit requires at least 12g wiring. They may have initially put in a 15A breaker, but then found it was tripping occasionally, and decided to just bump it up to a 20A breaker. If the home was ever inspected, that would be a big red flag.

 

[Thomas K]

If you really have 14g wire on a 20A breaker, you need to address that as a 20A circuit requires at least 12g wiring. They may have initially put in a 15A breaker, but then found it was tripping occasionally, and decided to just bump it up to a 20A breaker. If the home was ever inspected, that would be a big red flag.

Yes, I will be replacing a few of the 20 amp breakers with 15 amp on the 14 ga. wire circuits.

 

[Thomas K]

What is the make and model of your breaker box?

Reach4: It is a 125 amp Square D Homeline panel. I found two numbers on it, so am not sure which is model number. Square D sticker had this number: 40265-668-03, and there was also a Homelite sticker with the number BXH26-24-A. There are 24 breaker slots in it, not counting the main 125 amp breaker. I said I had 3 legs left, with one earmarked for freezer dedicated circuit. I also have one earmarked as a 20 amp circuit for 3-4 bathroom GFCIs, new NM 12 ga wire.

House is wired for electric stove, but we won't be using one. But I don't think it would be a good idea to remove the wiring for it.

I noticed, too, that there are quite a few of those 14 gauge wires with no grounds coming into the breaker box. I know you can retrofit green insulated wiring to outlets that aren't grounded, but am not sure how the process works. From what I've read, you need a larger ground wire at breaker box than the ground wires you are installing. Looks like it would be just as easy to fish a new wire down a wall or across ceiling joists.

Guy who inspected our house before we bought it said there we're several outlets with no ground, and probably a few lights as well. When I asked him if I could add ground wires or rewire some of it he said sure, I could, but I might hurt any resale value if I did, and that what's there now would be "grandfathered in."

Well, whoever wired it used NM wire, and I'm pretty sure they didn't have NM wire in 1963. I mean, surely it isn't the original wiring for the house. Some of it has no grounds, and some of it does, marked NM w g.

 

[Reach4]

Reach4: It is a 125 amp Square D Homelite panel. I found two numbers on it, so am not sure which is model number. Square D sticker had this number: 40265-668-03, and there was also a Homelite sticker with the number BXH26-24-A. There are 24 breaker slots in it, not counting the main 125 amp breaker.

Good news. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ith-Cover-Ground-Bar-HOM2448L125PGC/204836361 That is rated as a 24-Space 48-Circuit panel. That means that you can put in tandem breakers, and each slot can handle two single pole circuits. There are other possiblities if you need another 2-pole circuit.

That box can accept any of these: https://www.homedepot.com/b/Feature...n-Neutral-Compatible-Breakers/N-5yc1vZ2fkomd8

This is a 20 amp tandem breaker, which is one of the choices. One slot.

 

[Thomas K]

Hey! Cool! I'm thinking that means a subpanel won't be necessary, right? I don't mean wallpapering the breaker box with tandem breakers, but seems if more single ones were needed to split up the kitchen outlet circuits, I could use a few tandems to power up some light circuits.

Just to be curious, do you guys mind telling me if you trust the push-in connectors like one shown in photo, or is it better to cut these off and use wire nuts?

 

[Reach4]

Hey! Cool! I'm thinking that means a subpanel won't be necessary, right?

Yes.

Want to add a 2-pole 240 volt circuit? Check this out:

Two single-pole circuits plus a 2-pole circuit in two slots.

 

[Thomas K]

The water heater spaces could be replaced with this, adding two circuits to breaker box-if that would pass the code for dedicated circuit needed for water heater.

 

[Thomas K]

If I wanted to add one wall outlet to my can light circuit, (only one) and the power wire goes into can light junction box through drilled holes in the second floor joists, could I add the 14-2 cable to can light junction box, or would I need a separate junction box? I know if I had a separate box on the joists it would have to extend through the first-floor ceiling drywall to be accessible.

I know how to wire it, even having a neutral in the switch box, but it will be a 14-2 power supply cable, 14-2 cable to outlet, 14-2 cable to other can light, and 14-3 cable back to switch box in one can light junction box. So that's four cables. Not sure if that's too many cables.

 

[wwhitney]

Depends on the can light, I would think most would have junction boxes that can only accept (2) cables. The installation instructions for the can light should say.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Thomas K]

Wayne: I think I'll wire power source to outlet first, then to wall light switch. From wall light switch I'll run a cable up to can light one, and then another cable over to can light 2. And run a power source jumper from switch box over to lighting in adjacent room.

 

[WorthFlorida]

...........Just to be curious, do you guys mind telling me if you trust the push-in connectors like one shown in photo, or is it better to cut these off and use wire nuts?........

Those push on connectors, in my opinion, are good at the last terminal. Daisy chaining them to other junctions, lights or outlets can be a problem with heavy loads. They do have proper current ratings, usually 15 amp and have UL approvals for such type of connections.

What I do not like about them is each wire essentially has one contact surface. A wire nut with the wire wrapped around each other has far more contact area. I was maintenance direct at a new church building and after about a year, I noticed an exit light was out and several ceiling lights. 23 feet up in the ceiling light fixture, one of these melted on the neutral side. Lighting was 18W four pin compact fluorescents. The electricians helper just had too many light fixtures going through one of these connectors. A little reconfiguration corrected the problem. In my spare electrical parts organizer box, I do have a few of these if I ever need one.

Now that almost all light fixtures are LED, an overload is less likely. Use them but just don't nuts using everywhere. They are good if you get a wire that is just too short for a wire nut in an old work junction. Sometimes the copper wire will break on you.

This is a long post so I'm not sure where you are. Current code requires just about every outlet to be arc fault protected. So for all your new work, AFCI breakers are needed and they are expensive.

 

[Aaroninnh]

Some of that wire looks pretty old. The small conductor rule, which limited a 14AWG conductor to 15A, don't come out until the mid seventies if my memory serves me. A 14AWG actually has an ampacity of 20A, but its allowable ampacity is limited to 15A with this 30+ year old rule. So its entirely possible the circuit started out as a 20A and no one ever addressed that with whatever renovations were done over the years.

 

[Thomas K]

Some of that wire looks pretty old. The small conductor rule, which limited a 14AWG conductor to 15A, don't come out until the mid seventies if my memory serves me. A 14AWG actually has an ampacity of 20A, but its allowable ampacity is limited to 15A with this 30+ year old rule. So its entirely possible the circuit started out as a 20A and no one ever addressed that with whatever renovations were done over the years.

Very possible. I don't think this is original wiring, though. Supposedly house was built in 1963; original toilets had 1964 date on bottom of lids. I don't think they came out with NM wire until 1965. But it is old NM wire, because some of it doesn't have a ground, and the insulation on the wires appears thicker than the newer NM I've been using to rewire a few switches and light junction boxes.

I haven't looked it up yet, but if a wire has to be stapled no more than 8" from a switch or outlet box, and you fish new wire through a wall cavity where you can't access wiring, how does that satisfy code?

 

[wwhitney]

I haven't looked it up yet, but if a wire has to be stapled no more than 8" from a switch or outlet box, and you fish new wire through a wall cavity where you can't access wiring, how does that satisfy code?

Boxes with clamps--12" ; single gang box without clamps (the only size so allowed)--8"; if you are fishing there's probably an exception (would have to check) but typically you could reach into the wall finish hole and secure the cable, then secure the box in the hole.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[DavidDeBord]

While on the subject of wiring, 20 amp circuit with 12 ga wire that powers up refrigerator is same circuit that feeds (3) outlets above kitchen counters (which are supposed to be GFCI but aren't) and wiring for kitchen range hood. I know I can wire in 1 GFCI and then feed the other two downstream from the LOAD side of the GFCI, so am wondering if this circuit is okay because refrigerator regular 20 amp outlet is wired in upstream of the LINE side of GFCI. I guess I'm asking if a refrigerator, coffee maker, microwave oven, and countertop toaster oven are too much for one circuit.

We have a GE 21 cubic foot freezer, as well, but it will be downstairs in storage room. There were outlets down there, but were wired in with lighting circuit I'm rewiring. This storage room has the breaker box in it, so since I have a couple of legs left in box, I will add a 20 amp breaker and run a 12 ga dedicated circuit for the freezer.

I could wire other outlet into the lights like it was, if I have to. I don't know who did wiring, but they had NM 14 gauge cable with no ground attached to a 20 amp breaker in box. Way too much breaker. The only things powered up by this circuit, as far as I can tell, is the downstairs lighting: (4) 60 watt recessed lights in den (which now have LED bulbs that pull 10 watts each), and four more 60 watt recessed light fixtures in rooms adjoining den. Since you can theoretically have around 1440 watts at your disposal (at 80 percent load) on a 15-amp circuit, I don't think I'd have any problem adding one outlet back to lighting circuit. Reason for so few outlets in freezer room is that all walls are concrete block with 2 x 4 framing around them for drywall.

Update: Remembered that there was one more 60 watt hall light on this light circuit and outdoor flood light with 2 60 watt bulbs in it. Which I am likely to change to LED.

"I guess I'm asking if a refrigerator, coffee maker, microwave oven, and countertop toaster oven are too much for one circuit."

YES. Unless of course breaker trips don't bother you on the holidays, or when you are having a party, & using all of those appliances.

Per the NEC, here in Ohio, your refrigerator should be on a dedicated circuit,at the least. As far as Your"Microwave Oven" & "Counter top toaster", are they "Portable" or built in?

And, with "Open walls" in your in your freezer room, that is a perfect situation to add more circuits.

 

[wwhitney]

Per the NEC, here in Ohio, your refrigerator should be on a dedicated circuit,at the least.

Oh, does Ohio have an amendment to that effect? Because the NEC itself allow the refrigerator to be on the same circuit as some of the countertop receptacles. [Not that I recommend that.]

Cheers, Wayne