Surface Check Valve??

[RetMil]

Here’s my sad story:

3 hp pump (25 gpm) at 200 feet. Well is 385 feet. 10 years old. Water only used for irrigation of large lawn. Good water (no sediment; some iron content). 1 1/4” PVC system piping. 20 gal tank (38 psi). 40/60 pressure switch. 50 psi CSV at top of well. Except for the pump’s check valve, from the itemized receipt at initial installation, I note no other check valves. I put a monitor at my circuit breaker box and noted the pump coming on for 3 minutes every 3-4 hours. I noted no leaks above the surface. To be sure the leak was not in the above-surface piping, I used the shutoff valve just after the tank to isolate the leak to below the surface. Pump still came on for 3 minutes every 3-4 hours.

Sooo, based on all the research I can find (thank you, forum gurus!), given the amount of water, it seems the “leak” is at the bottom of my well piping (that is, most likely, at the pump’s check valve).

Since the system has been running fine, I’d REALLY like to get some more use out of the pump before replacement. (And, if I have to “pull the pump,” to fix this, the cost would dictate I should replace it, due to age.) Therefore, I’m hoping a good, above-surface check valve would hold the water that is going back down the well—keeping the pump from excess wear by its running (and saving electricity) AND getting me some more use out of the pump before spending big bucks for replacement.

If all this makes sense: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

Many thanks for your wisdom on this!

 

[Valveman]

Adding a check valve above ground will stop the leak back down the well. However, it will cause a water hammer thump every time the pump starts. If the water hammer isn't too bad and you can live with the thump, it may work fine. But that thump can cause a tremendous surge in pressure which could burst the line prior to the second check valve.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[RetMil]

Please help me understand. If the check valve I install does exactly what the failing/failed check valve is supposed to do that is inside the pump (that is, keep water in the entire system piping), why would there now be a water hammer thump?

Also, if I could get your expertise on my questions:

If all this makes sense: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

Thanks!

 

[LLigetfa]

Water hammer may be the least of your problems. Depending on where the leak is, a topside check valve could cause surface groundwater to contaminate your supply.

 

[RetMil]

Your response has me perplexed: If the leak has been isolated to somewhere inside the well and I (probably) place the check valve near the well head (to hold the water in the well’s piping), how could any surface groundwater contaminate my water supply?

and I’m still hoping for answers to: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

 

[Fitter30]

Irrigation is it open or is there zone valves. If open system there should be much of shock. If zone valves valves could be on a timer for one minute all open then switched back to the controller.

 

[RetMil]

I have six (6) zones, each with its own zone valve. It would be interesting to try to have all the zone valves open for a short time when the pump is powered on . . . .

And I’m still hoping for answers to: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

 

[Fitter30]

Easy way to check performance of the pump is to valve the system off install a 0-100 lb gauge jump out the pressure switch see what the pump produces dead headed. If after a minute or less if pressure seem to stabilize shut pump off. Pressure drops quickly probably the check. Since the pump is producing more than 60-65 lbs to over come csv and you still must be satisfied with the amount of water and pressure rewire the switch.

 

[LLigetfa]

Your response has me perplexed: If the leak has been isolated to somewhere inside the well and I (probably) place the check valve near the well head (to hold the water in the well’s piping), how could any surface groundwater contaminate my water supply?

How did you come to the conclusion the leak is within the well casing and not between the wellhead and the tank, assuming there is a pitless and underground piping between the wellhead and tank?
With the check valve at the surface, if there is underground piping between the well and that valve, water hammer can create a leak in that pipe and the water falling back down the well can suck in contaminated surface water.

Since you only use it for irrigation, contamination would only be an issue if you share the aquifer with neighbors that use it for potable water.

 

[RetMil]

I came to the conclusion that the leak is somewhere in the well because the distance to the well head from the tank is only about 15 feet and is buried only a few inches below the ground—which is “sweet Georgia clay.” There is no sign of any water leaking from this area. As noted, I have a shutoff just after the tank and pressure switch. When it is off—isolating the entire irrigation system—the same failure occurs: every 3-4 hours the pump comes on for 3 minutes, due to the pressure decreasing enough to trigger the pressure switch. When I left the pump off, and the shutoff valve still isolating the irrigation system, the pressure gage I have near the pressure switch eventually went to zero.

And I’m still hoping for answers to: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

 

[RetMil]

.

 

[RetMil]

Easy way to check performance of the pump is to valve the system off install a 0-100 lb gauge jump out the pressure switch see what the pump produces dead headed. If after a minute or less if pressure seem to stabilize shut pump off. Pressure drops quickly probably the check. Since the pump is producing more than 60-65 lbs to over come csv and you still must be satisfied with the amount of water and pressure rewire the switch.

The pump’s performance has never been in doubt—it does a great job. It’s the below ground leak that is my supposed problem.

And I’m still hoping for answers to: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

How did you come to the conclusion the leak is within the well casing and not between the wellhead and the tank, assuming there is a pitless and underground piping between the wellhead and tank?
With the check valve at the surface, if there is underground piping between the well and that valve, water hammer can create a leak in that pipe and the water falling back down the well can suck in contaminated surface water.

Since you only use it for irrigation, contamination would only be an issue if you share the aquifer with neighbors that use it for potable water.

 

[LLigetfa]

I don't recall you mentioning how far down the static water level is or how far it draws down during use. Knowing that would provide a clue as to how far the water column may drop and how long of a column will slam into the check valve when the pump starts.

Probably the leak is at the check valve built into the pump. Even if that check is not leaking now, it probably will after installing the topside check. I'm guessing you don't want to lift out the pump and install the check on top of the pump.

 

[Fitter30]

250' 1.250 pvc holds 16 gallons of water. If there is a hole in the pipe it won't build all the pressure from design. If you have the brand and model number can tell its up to design pressure. There is no way else that i know of to determine pump performance or pump check. With pump curve can come up with volume and gpm in the ball park. 200' height 86.6 lbs pressure at pump standing water.
Can u get enough water hose from house to well? Time water coming from hose to fill a 5 gallon bucket. Fill pipe time it.

 

[Reach4]

Please help me understand. If the check valve I install does exactly what the failing/failed check valve is supposed to do that is inside the pump (that is, keep water in the entire system piping), why would there now be a water hammer thump?

Also, if I could get your expertise on my questions:

If all this makes sense: 1) Please recommend a first-rate check valve (spring? stainless steel? ===> Brand/model?) that would fulfill this requirement. 2) Suggested placement? 3) Would it make a difference whether it’s placed horizontal or vertical?

Thanks!

Use a spring-loaded check valve.

People have spoken well of Simmons and Flomatic check valves. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/check-valve-ruptured.66622/ They are spring-loaded.

Horizontal or vertical will not matter.

Here’s my sad story:

3 hp pump (25 gpm) at 200 feet. Well is 385 feet. 10 years old. Water only used for irrigation of large lawn. Good water (no sediment; some iron content). 1 1/4” PVC system piping. 20 gal tank (38 psi). 40/60 pressure switch. 50 psi CSV at top of well. Except for the pump’s check valve, from the itemized receipt at initial installation, I note no other check valves. I put a monitor at my circuit breaker box and noted the pump coming on for 3 minutes every 3-4 hours.

Why not inhibit the pump except while irrigating? I you use a controller to control the zones, I suspect there is an output that can be use to control a relay/contactor that would be in series with at least one of the hots through the pressure switch.

 

[LLigetfa]

250' 1.250 pvc holds 16 gallons of water.

16 gallons of water weighs around 133 pounds. Think of that weight slamming into the check valve on pump start.

 

[LLigetfa]

Oh, and one more thing... when the pump starts filling that partial vacuum, that high GPM moving 133 gallons could create an upthrust condition and chew the tops off the volutes.

 

[RetMil]

Use a spring-loaded check valve.

People have spoken well of Simmons and Flomatic check valves. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/check-valve-ruptured.66622/ They are spring-loaded.

Horizontal or vertical will not matter.

Why not inhibit the pump except while irrigating? I you use a controller to control the zones, I suspect there is an output that can be use to control a relay/contactor that would be in series with at least one of the hots through the pressure switch.

You are the first person that answered my specific questions. Thank you; however, if you have a couple of === exact model === suggestions--of the many check valves available--I would certainly appreciate it.

I can't inhibit the pump to only when the irrigation system is on, for a number of reasons. One is distance from the irrigation controls to the pump controls and the other is that I share the well with my neighbor. Otherwise, the idea certainly had merit.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you; however, if you have a couple of === exact model === suggestions--of the many check valves available--I would certainly appreciate it.

I have no relevant experience. I would look at the form factor I wanted, and if wanted two 1 inch FNPT ports, I would currently go with the Simmons 503SB.

If later taking it out of service, it looks like you could just remove the poppet, and keep the housing as a coupling.

https://www.zoro.com/search?q=simmons+check+valve If you get the order over $50, free shipping.

 

[RetMil]

16 gallons of water weighs around 133 pounds. Think of that weight slamming into the check valve on pump start.

Hmmm, if the check valve stops the 16 gallons of water from leaking out of the system, how does that weight slam into the check valve on pump start--since the water is already right at the check valve?