Sump Pump Check Valve Problem

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by kubstix, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. Treeman

    Treeman Member

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  2. kubstix

    kubstix Member

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    So would something like this be a better solution for me?

    https://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/Zoeller-30-0238/p65022.html

    [​IMG]

    Or just run it without a valve? I would prefer to not be open ended as the risk of freezing temps traveling up the pipe. Garage is heated between 55-60, but this lid is going to be completely sealed so I would not like to run the risk of water freezing inside the basin.
     
  3. kubstix

    kubstix Member

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    Interesting idea as well. Also really never though about the way I piped it with snow on top of everything. Although I doubt this is going to run much if at all during the winter once the ground freezes.
     
  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe.
    [​IMG]

    That looks interesting, but I am wondering if it could not be improved with a vacuum breaker at the top. I am not sure what the best vacuum breaker would be. Would one designed for a water heater etc be ideal (considering cost plus performance)?

    The thought is that it would allow the water to flow out, but once a siphon action started, the vacuum would disappear, flow would smoothly happen going out, and action at the check valve would stop.

    Getting wilder, suppose you teed to a pipe/tube at the top that went to a higher-floor laundry tub, instead of a vacuum breaker. If the backpressure on the exit pipe was low enough (may be the big flaw in this idea), the water would not squirt into the laundry tub, and air could come in to break the siphon. If the outside port froze shut, water would divert to the laundry tub.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 9:00 AM
  5. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida Don’t you hate that, take a seat and no paper!

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    No matter where the check valve is located it will still have a siphon effect. A spring loaded check valve that can over come the atmospheric pressure, then the valve would snap shut and there still be a siphon but water will remain in the discharge pipe. Just like when dipping a straw in a cup of water and placing your finger on the top of the straw and lifting it out.
     
  6. kubstix

    kubstix Member

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    Do you think being the valve is submerged along with the vent hole it would stop it? I'm just grasping at straws at this point. The only thing I could say confidently is, this was never an issue until I drilled the vent hole. Soon as I drilled it, the fluttering and air issues started happening. I could maybe not drill the vent hole, but to me it sounds like this is very much needed on zoeller pumps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 2:33 PM
  7. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    I normally install the check valve in the pit, but that should not make much difference.

    IMO, the noise is the siphon you have created in the line. I always route the discharge out the sidewall and then turn 90 degrees down to an air gap into the next section of pipe. The air gap provides a vent for the remainder of the line going out away from the foundation and prevents any siphon/suction on the inside piping.

    Where grade permits, we run a 3 or 4" line in the ground out to daylight at least 20' downhill from the foundation. We sometimes have rains this time of the year when the ground is frozen, and the sump pumps run a lot then, and the larger pipe in the ground will not build enough ice to freeze closed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 6:53 PM
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  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Unless most of your foundation is above ground (maybe a walk-out basement?), it's highly unlikely that the sump pit would freeze. Where is it relative to the frost line where you live? Ground and room heat should overcome the heat lost through the drain pipe.

    Every location is a bit different, but north of you near Lake Ontario where I grew up, the sump ran all year, and more after snowmelt or rain, but it still ran.
     
  9. kubstix

    kubstix Member

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    Half of it is 4 feet underground, half is level being I live on a hill. Being this is the garage we are level here. The sump lid is level with ground. Garage is heated though but this lid is sealed so I'm not certain that would matter. I don't think this guy will run much during the winter but when I took the valve off, you can clearly feel frigid cold air coming in through piping. Whether or not that will get cold enough to cause any issues, I'm not sure.
     
  10. Treeman

    Treeman Member

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    I don't think that is correct. The siphon action only happens when the outlet is lower than reservoir of liquid. Without this, the horizontal pipe water will just drain out without the siphon action. His layout - siphon is happening from the high check valve to the outlet.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    I believe your problem is a combination of errors. Your outlet is lower than your check valve, creating a mild siphon effect. Your "water head" above the check valve is minimal (8 inches). The combined suckage/lower pressure) of the siphon and little "water head" pressure above the check valve allows the rising air bubbles in lower pipe (as it is draining out) to go past the valve flap and create your noise.

    Possible solutions:
    - remove the siphon action by following the advice above: open elbow at the end of the horizontal pipe with air gap, then into larger pipe or Reach4's air admittance valve.
    - lower the check valve to "maybe" create enough water head pressure to overcome any rising air (and maybe eliminate siphon depending on grade levels?).
    - don't use a check valve.

    You will have to engage your engineer brain and evaluate using one or a combination of the above solutions of your preference to remedy the check valve noise .
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 6:08 PM
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  11. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida Don’t you hate that, take a seat and no paper!

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    Put a screw in the hole and see how it is. Try it without the check valve this winter. If it does freeze as you are worried about, just get a drop light with a 60 watt incandescent or halogen bulb. Hang it inside the sump and it will keep it warm enough not to freeze. It‘s an old trick for domestic water wells.

    LOL
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 5:23 AM
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  12. Treeman

    Treeman Member

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    Delete. Sorry.
     
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