Subfloor question about vapor barrier

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jocko165

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Hello all. Brand new to forum so I am not sure if tjis has been covered. I just recently purchased an older farm house in Leslie, AR. The house is on a crawlspace. Subfloor is 1x4 layed diagonally over joists. there is a plastic vapor barrier then 3/4" particleboard. We are going to put down engineered hardwood and tile. The particleboard has some bad areas that have to be replaced. Since its no good to staple the new floors to the pb I was gonna pull it up and put down plywood. My first question is: is the plastic between sbfloor and underlayment correct? Should I take out plastic so I can glue down plywood and then put vapor barrier on top?
 

Dana

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Hello all. Brand new to forum so I am not sure if tjis has been covered. I just recently purchased an older farm house in Leslie, AR. The house is on a crawlspace. Subfloor is 1x4 layed diagonally over joists. there is a plastic vapor barrier then 3/4" particleboard. We are going to put down engineered hardwood and tile. The particleboard has some bad areas that have to be replaced. Since its no good to staple the new floors to the pb I was gonna pull it up and put down plywood. My first question is: is the plastic between sbfloor and underlayment correct? Should I take out plastic so I can glue down plywood and then put vapor barrier on top?

If you tape or otherwise seal the seams of the plywood it's just as good an air-barrier as the plastic. The air barrier/slip surface didn't NEED to be plastic, but as long as you don't put down a water vapor impermeable flooring such as vinyl it's fine to leave it. If you're ripping up ALL the particle board you can replace it with rosin paper, kraft, or even housewrap, which would allow any water spillage on the floor to dry in both directions.

Conway AR is in US climate zone 3A, which is humid enough that a crawlspace vented to the outdoors bring in more moisture into the house than it removes. The best place for a poly vapor barrier is on the crawlspace floor, then sealing up (or even insulating) the crawlspace walls & vents, which brings the average humidity in the crawlspace to that of the rest of the house. In an air conditioned house the subfloor spends some of the summer at a temperature below the dew point of the exterior air. With poly sheeting above the subfloor the air conditioning won't dry out the subfloor, and it's cooler temp causes it to take on moisture. If it hasn't shown mold problems by now it's probably not going to, but if the crawlspace smells moldy at all there is some risk. Replacing the poly sheeting with something water-vapor permeable won't raise the temperature of the subfloor, but it at least allows some drying toward the air-conditioned interior. But when you seal the crawlspace from the ground and exterior with vapor barriers the air in the crawlspace is much drier, and so is all of the structural wood.

You DO want the floor to be air-tight to the crawlspace if the crawlspace remains vented to the outdoors, since moist air moving up through the floor would deposit it's moisture at the finish floor, and the infiltration would add to both the cooling and heating loads (= higher energy use + less comfort.)
 

jocko165

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Dana< I am almost certainly gonna pull up the particleboard and put down plywood. I want to be able to nail my engineered hardwood to the plywood. Right now there is no vapor barrier on the ground in the crawlspace and there are vents to the outside. Would I be better off to take out the plastic over the subfloor and use 15#roof felt between the hardwood and plywood and put a vapor barrier over the dirt in crawlspace?
 

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The traditional tried & true slip surface for plank subflooring is rosin paper, but if you're giving it a full cover of plywood you don't really need anything between the plywood & subfloor. Screw or ring-shank nail the plywood to the joists, and tape the plywood seams with housewrap tape to make it air tight before putting down whatever slip-surface underlayment the flooring manufacturer recommends.

You're definitely better off with both a ground vapor barrier and a sealed-insulated crawlspace. If you're not sealing ( and preferably insulating) the crawlspace walls, putting a vapor barrier on the underside of the joists at least keeps all of the wood at the house humidity level rather than the outdoor humidity level.

In a zone 3 climate it only takes 1" of foil faced rigid polyiso foam on the interior side of the foundation to meet IRC code minimums. If you do that, put the ground vapor barrier down first lapping it up 8-12" up the side of the foundation wall, and install the rigid foam overlapping the vapor barrier. Use 1x4 furring through-screwed to the foundation over the rigid foam to hold it in place. In termite territory stop a couple inches below the top to have an inspection strip. Seal the seams of the foil-faced foam with either a decent quality temperature rated foil tape (eg. Nashua 324a, sold in most box stores) or housewrap tape. Seal the top edge to the foundation (or foundation sill) as well as the bottom edge to the vapor barrier with can foam. In most jurisdictions you would not be required to install an ignition barrier over foil-face polyiso (especially if you used fire rated Dow Thermax polyiso, though others are nearly as good.) Other foams and some juridictions would require you to hang half-inch wallboard or something on the furring as a thermal barrier against ignition.

The ground vapor barrier plastic can be 10-mil polyethylene or EPDM (membrane roofing). To seal sheets of poly sheeting to one another overlap them by a foot, lay a bead of caulk 6" in from the edge, and seal the edge with housewrap tape.

It's a project to seal & insulate a crawlspace, but it pays off in better indoor air quality and lower heating/cooling energy use, as well as the longevity /moisture resilience of the wood down there. It also eliminates freezing risk for any plumbing that's down there.
 

Jadnashua

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Don't try to glue the plywood to the planks...first, make sure all of the planks are well attached to the joists with screws, then you can screw the ply to the planks.
 

jocko165

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Don't try to glue the plywood to the planks...first, make sure all of the planks are well attached to the joists with screws, then you can screw the ply to the planks.
why no glue? I thought the idea was to make the floor as rigid as possible and to try to prevent the floor from moving? Not trying to sound like a smart a** just trying to understand
 

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It's better to ring-shank nail or screw the plywood to the joist timbers than the planks. The changes in dimension of the planks relative the plywood with humidity changes differs, and bonding it too closely to the planks may cause seasonal flexing/warping issues That effect goes down if you go with the conditioned crawlspace concept, since the moisture content of the wood won't change very much from season to season.

If you nail the plywood to the planks rather than the joists you can end up with squeaky floors, since the old nails on the planking don't have nearly the bite into the joist as ring shanks or screws. Every minor flex in the floor ends up being accompanied by the squeaks of nails rubbing on wood.
 

Jadnashua

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The Tile Council of North America (TCNA) does LOTS of testing and they've determined that gluing plywood to a plank subfloor isn't the best way to do it. In a conventional installation, they DO call for glue on the top of the joists when putting down plywood subflooring. They also require those planks to be T&G, and well fastened to the joists without movement prior to adding the ply. The spec calls for them to be perpendicular to the joists, like the new plywood, too. If yours are diagonal, their individual spans are longer, and they aren't as strong, and a thicker layer of ply is prudent. You don't need to reinvent the wheel...all of the relevant testing has been done. You can buy a copy of the TCNA handbook, it covers almost anything you need to know on how to do things with tile and have it last.

They also do not recommend glue between sheets of plywood, especially typical, thick, construction adhesive from a caulking gun...it's too hard to get intimate contact of both layers, and in most cases, you'll end up with thin voids and therefore voids between the panels two panels held apart by beads of not quite flattened adhesive (not likely on a thin joist top where the fasteners will apply more force psi). You COULD do it, but if you did, you'd want a full contact with a liquid wood glue, similar to what is done when plywood or glulams are made and LOTS of fasteners, done properly (rather than the giant presses used to make those engineered panels), to clamp it together while the glue sets. It's just too hard to do a good job, and not using it ends up better most of the time.
 

Jadnashua

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The Tile Council of North America (TCNA) does LOTS of testing and they've determined that gluing plywood to a plank subfloor isn't the best way to do it. In a conventional installation, they DO call for glue on the top of the joists when putting down plywood subflooring. They also require those planks to be T&G, and well fastened to the joists without movement prior to adding the ply. The spec calls for them to be perpendicular to the joists, like the new plywood, too. If yours are diagonal, their individual spans are longer, and they aren't as strong, and a thicker layer of ply is prudent. You don't need to reinvent the wheel...all of the relevant testing has been done. You can buy a copy of the TCNA handbook, it covers almost anything you need to know on how to do things with tile and have it last.

They also do not recommend glue between sheets of plywood, especially typical, thick, construction adhesive from a caulking gun...it's too hard to get intimate contact of both layers, and in most cases, you'll end up with thin voids and therefore voids between the panels two panels held apart by beads of not quite flattened adhesive (not likely on a thin joist top where the fasteners will apply more force psi). You COULD do it, but if you did, you'd want a full contact with a liquid wood glue, similar to what is done when plywood or glulams are made and LOTS of fasteners, done properly (rather than the giant presses used to make those engineered panels), to clamp it together while the glue sets. It's just too hard to do a good job, and not using it ends up better most of the time.
 
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