Stumped by vent issue with AAV in new bathroom

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ANewHouse

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OK, to sort of wrap up: it seems like there's nothing obviously wrong with my setup, unless there's somehow an unintentional trap elsewhere in the drain line (seems extremely unlikely, but not actually tested or visualized). I might be able to use a flexible camera snake to look and find out for sure - would that be the best way to find out?
I simply don't understand where in this drain line water could pool! The toilet is above a properly-sloped, well-supported 3" drain line, which runs about 16' to the main stack. This stack terminates at the top in a roof vent, and one floor below it goes out to a septic tank. But if, as hj suggests, some sort of obstruction is present (but disappears when AAV is removed) how would I confirm this and then fix it?

IOW: What are my options for moving forward? What would you do if faced with this set of symptoms?
 

Ben Bradshaw

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ANewHouse, did you ever solve this issue? I have what sounds like the identical situation. New construction on slab. Office building. The only plumbing in the building is a bathroom. One vanity sink, one toilet, one shower, in that order. There is only one vent, into the attic with an AAV on it.
When I flush, the water goes down partially, but not quite enough to start the siphon. It does not rise as it would if the drain were clogged. If I remove the AAV, the toilet flushes perfectly, although the flush creates a loud gurgling in the shower drain.
Here's another interesting thing I discovered: with the aav in place, the toilet won't quite flush. If I then take a plunger and use it on the SHOWER drain a few strokes, the toilet will flush just fine, until you run water in the shower for a few minutes, then the toilet reverts back to not flushing.

I'm thinking maybe there is a "double trap" situation between the sink and the shower.
 

RotaxParts

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All plumbing follows the basic laws of nature... gravity, pressure (or venting), and water that doesn't seek its own level. Having this in mind will help in keeping an understanding when challenged by the plumbing demons.

First, water supply systems and water drainage systems must always be two distinct subsystems of plumbing as opposed to drainage and venting (the sewer system). Fixtures (plumbing bridges) bridge these two systems together. Air admitted by the venting of pipes keeps the water flowing while averting siphoning out other traps, keeping them sealed, and preventing sewer gases from entering the structure through the drains.

Despite what many people believe, like supply systems, drainage system performance DOES depend on pressure; or the absence of negative pressure. Waste water (matter) drains through the pipe due to positive flow, as in drain line pitch or angle in a downward direction; gravity. Sounds simple enough, but there's more to it... i.e. venting. Vents allow air to enter the drainpipes when negative pressure is generated from the flow of fluids through a pipe. to proper performance. This is called the Bernoulli Principle or the Bernoulli Effect: In fluid dynamics, Bernoulli's principle states that for an increase flow, an increase in the speed of the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy. To put it another way, an increase in the speed of a fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy.

Most of the time when we think of pressure we thing of positive pressure however, pressure can be, negative or positive. For example, plumbing vents allow air to enter the drainpipes decreasing pressure; negative pressure. If there were no air supply coming from the vents, wastewater would not flow out properly and the water would be slow to flow or traps could potential be siphoned away. Think of your finger over the end of a straw filled with fluid. Thus, drainage and venting must work simultaneously.

Hydrostatic perpetual motion? Perhaps. In whatever the case, all fixtures must have a trap, and ALL traps must have a vent nearby. This does not mean you can't tie all together to one venting system or use individual AAV's, but ALL must vent after the trap prior to another trap or any long, (especially straight downward) runs that create pressure, albeit negative pressure.

In your case, you say the AAV is not opening... that is because there is not enough pressure to open it but enough to effect fluid flow performance. Check the DFU values in your system per fixture as these values become critical when combining open venting systems with mechanical devices which relys on pressure to function properly.

Disclaimer: This post is a matter of opinion; I am not a licensed plumber nor an aeronautical engineer moreover, just an average Joe DIY'er somewhere in between who ignores California Proposition Acts while learning fearfully through trial and error; maybe it's just a Texas thing.
 

T. Bonds

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I'm an extreme novice searching the internet for advice before I install AAV on the bathroom I'm building. Everthing I've read about AAVs says they have to be installed vertically. From your picture it seems that yours is horizontal. Maybe try making it vertical.
 

Reach4

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I'm an extreme novice searching the internet for advice before I install AAV on the bathroom I'm building. Everthing I've read about AAVs says they have to be installed vertically. From your picture it seems that yours is horizontal. Maybe try making it vertical.
In the picture, A is the AAV. C is a cleanout. The AAV needs to be changeable, so you have to have enough space above to unscrew the AAV.
IMG_5.jpg
 

Michael Young

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Hi, first post, but I've been casually reading for a while. I've found a lot of good advice here - thanks already!

I'm working on a bathroom, and I'm totally stumped by a vent issue.
Not sure about the best way to attach pictures, so I've uploaded and pasted links below.
There just isn't a good way to get through the roof from this room, so I have an Air Admittance Valve under the sink. After the P-trap, the drain goes into 2" PVC. About 5 feet downstream of that, there's a toilet, which drains into 3" PVC. Then the 3" PVC runs across a room to the main stack with roof vent, which is about 16' away. All is sloped properly so water doesn't pool in the drain lines. The AAV under the sink (rated for 20 DFU) should be adequate to vent both fixtures. However, when the AAV is attached, they don't vent! The toilet doesn't flush all the way (bowl fills up and then drains extremely slowly). When I run the sink wide open for more than a few seconds, it drains slowly and eventually causes the toilet to bubble. However, if I reach under the sink and loosen/remove the AAV, I can feel air rushing in, and everything drains just fine (no sewer gas smell). This makes me think it's a problem with the AAV itself, and not a problem with the rest of the plumbing. So I ordered a different brand of AAV, and the same thing happens! (I've now tried both Oatey and Studor AAVs).
Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

View attachment 37210 View attachment 37211

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4omjtbz0P0acnNEcTJKQnRRVUd3Rnk3Zk8wVjFuZlpHRUln

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4omjtbz0P0acnBoYTZFRmtKZmQzODYzSFdfRHgxTGRaRUtj


I had one identical to this. I should have worked. But it didn't work. Same thing. I'd flush the toilet without the vent and the toilet would flush fine. Discovered that the septic tank was full and the excess water in the drain was killing the main vent. Any chance you may have some obstruction that could be cutting off the main vent.
 

OLD TIMER

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Vents also work because of atmospheric pressure, which is 14.69 psi. If I were you, just to be safe, install an over sized AAV.
 

Don in Chester

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I know this is over 3 years old. Still a problem? I would concentrate on the vent and fittings around it. Had critters made a home in the pipe? Are any fittings mis-used?
 

Bull1995

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I’m no expert, and I would like to know the answer because I am finishing my basement and I am exploring venting options as well.
However the AAV setup under the sink looks a bit off to me. That doesn’t look like a proper p-trap set up. It’s pretty much an S trap, even though there is a bit of a run to the T. I have an old house and my kitchen sink has an S trap (even more pronounced than this) and if I fill the sink, it gurgles when I drain it.
Then it goes to another 90 degree angle at the bottom where the clean out is. It looks like a lot of clunkiness to me.
It could have nothing to do with it, I don’t know. But that sink setup just looks off to me.
 

mprin451

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this question is for member hj

I am having the same problem described in the original post. I'm in a new manufactured home and have tried all the suggestions in every forum that has a post about AAVs.

Can you please clarify what you mean by "installing one that lets air out"? Is it just a different type of vent i can replace one of my current AAV with?

My bathroom has 2 sinks both with an AAV, has a roof vent but the toilet will not flush unless i remove one of the sink AAV's.



[QUOTE

IF there is NO "venting" between your AAV and wherever the "obstruction" is, it makes no difference WHICH floor it is on. REmoving the AAV would NOT "cure" a trap under the toilet. Installing an "atmospheric vent" would NOT cure the problem, it would just eliminate the symptoms. you can put in as many AAVs as you want, but until you install one that lets air OUT, they will not help.[/QUOTE]
 
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