Stuck pump, any way to cut the pipe above the pump?

[ncgeo]

I'm trying to remove my submersible pump from a partially-uncased well but not having much luck. I was able to raise it about 3 feet with some strong backs, but no further and it won't drop back down. Also the pipe/pump won't turn in the bore hole so is probably not the torque arrestor hanging up; its more likely the pump hung up in a collapse. It's hanging on 100' of poly so it cannot be pushed down. I haven't called in anyone with a pulling rig, yet.

I know this topic has been discussed often through the years, and it seems the typical answer is to pull and pray the pipe breaks near the pump. Has anyone tried using a drilling rig with a bit or some steel pipe to push it down? Can the pump be drilled out? Is there any type of small, brushcutting type saw that could be lowered into the well to sever the pipe just above the pump? If not, someone should build one. There seems to be a good number of people who have this issue.

I did speak to one local driller who proposed bringing in a small rig and pushing on the pump with pipe in an attempt to loosen or send to the bottom of the well, but I would still be faced with hoping the pipe broke in the right place. Worst case say the pipe breaks near the top of the well ... is it possible to send down new 4" pump in the 6" well alongside the 1" poly? The problem I see with that is the cableguards; no sure they can be pushed out of the way with the new pump.

Looking for any and all ideas. I'm ready to get a pro involved but looking for some more certainty than a prayer.

 

[Masterpumpman]

I suspect that maybe a safety rope broke at the well seal and fell on top of the pump, lodging the pump. Running a new pump beside the existing drop pipe and wire is risky. My suggestion is to locate a drilling contractor with a down hole camera to find what's lodging the pump. If it's a safety rope or wire you may be able to snag the rope with a right hand coil spring fishing tool. Many times you can spin the spring into the wire or safety rope like a wine cork screw and remove it. . . sometimes the pump will follow.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ncgeo]

Unfortunately I have yet to find anyone who suggests anything more sophisticated than the pull and pray method. This includes some of the major drillers in the metro area. But I'll ask specifically if they have such equipment.

There is no safety rope on the pump; its hung up with a collapse or really jammed up at the torque arrestor. I was able to measure depth to pump and is the same as when installed.

Any idea the tensile strength of the 1" poly? I'm wondering how much pulling force can be applied before the pipe snaps.

 

[Masterpumpman]

It will stretch a long way before breaking! Hopefully it will pull off at the pump. . . but probably not be that lucky. Have done it. . then moved over and drilled a new well.

 

[ncgeo]

Success ... the driller with the small rig came in and was able to free the pump. First he tried pulling with the winch, but the pump was stuck hard. So he connected up enough rod to reach the pump, caught the top of it, and pushed it down a few feet. After a few rounds of pushing and pulling it broke free and then could pull by hand. The torque arrestor above the pump was much distorted, and I suspect was a major cause of the hangup. Also it was clamped real tight to the pipe, explaining why the pipe would not turn on top. There definitely will NOT be one installed with the new pump

With the pump out the driller was able to send down the down-hole camera and we saw a number of areas with rock "ledges" in the granite. So either the well may be collapsing some or the original drilling wasn't so clean. With this risk I still wonder why the drillers here in the NC Piedmont won't use slotted casing reaching past the pump ... a 4" casing would easily slide down a 6" borehole. That case could rest on the bottom and/or be grouted on the top. The well may still collapse but the pump would only see the smooth casing, and is unlikely the collapsed material would pack so hard to close off the flow through the slots. To me it would be worth the investment in the extra casing

For anyone who encountesr this problem I would highly recommend this method over just pulling, which almost certainly would have stretched and snapped the pipe. But I found most pump guys don't have a rig to do the pushing, and drillers don't want to bring out their big rigs for this type work.

 

[Ballvalve]

You got a good man that thought to tap on the pump with rods. Worked the debris past the pump. "well" noted!

I now typically line all my 6" wells with 4" 100' head pvc, with NSF stamp. Saw slot it below first water as the well report indicates, although sometimes I slot the entire stick.

Just lined one that was caving; I was lucky enough to notice a flow reduction that caused me to pull it, discovering the muck and granite chips just at pump screen intake level.

Note the tight fit in the pipe and be careful about using 20' sticks with the hub up - had one with a reversed joint, and drove us nuts until pulled the pump and found Franklin gives you a perfect lip on the bottom of the motor to catch a 1/8" step and never let it past.

Taped it with Scotch 33 but I think a clamped on cap would be better - especially if you use seperate coupled pipe.

How much did this event cost you?? He also lined it with 4"?

 

[ncgeo]

The well was not lined during his visit; that was just a thought I had. His services ran a flat $500 for 4hours of work. I found the going rate for a pulling rig is $80/hr. and up from the time they leave the shop and they only use the pull and pray method, so this seemed reasonable.

I found my original receipt for the well and they charged $6.00/ft for the 6" case. Would I have spent another $540 for the 90 ft that is uncased? I know I would after this experience!

 

[Masterpumpman]

I know the pump man very well!

I believe the down hole camera did show some boulders sticking out. Without reaming the hole to the bottom this may prevent the installation of a liner in this well.

It's a good practice to install a 4" or 4-1/2" PVC liner in 6" and 6-1/2" rock wells. However it does increase the cost of the well quite a bit. They almost always install liners in wells in NM.

 

[Ballvalve]

The well was not lined during his visit; that was just a thought I had. His services ran a flat $500 for 4hours of work. I found the going rate for a pulling rig is $80/hr. and up from the time they leave the shop and they only use the pull and pray method, so this seemed reasonable.

I found my original receipt for the well and they charged $6.00/ft for the 6" case. Would I have spent another $540 for the 90 ft that is uncased? I know I would after this experience!

The 80$ guy that would not have the brains to push AND pull, would have cost you thousands with a big mess of crap stuck in the well.

The $125 guy saved your well. Now I would pay him to pull the pump and set 4" liner all the way down, although you can do it yourself fairly easily if so inclined.

And no, you would have spent much more for the lower casing because it would have to be slotted or screened. The liner is always cheap and effective insurance.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Instead of "lining" a well with a 4" ID PVC pipe for my 3 7/8" pump to maybe get hot and weld itself to because of only a 16th inch of clearance, I would simply not install a torque arrestor (or safety rope or line) which caused this "i can't get the pump out" problem.

 

[Ballvalve]

He had rock and muck on top of the pump. He will have it again very soon. If you guys ever did any mining, you would know that nature abhors a void and is always trying to fill a hole back in.

To really do it right, it should be gravel packed too.

 

[ncgeo]

>He had rock and muck on top of the pump. He will have it again very soon.

I had the opportunity to check the bore depth and it is the same 145' that was drilled. Based on that and noticing it was pumping some sand when running, what may be happening is some soft spots in the bore wall may be eroding. Since I won't be using a torque arrestor with the new pump I'm hoping it will be easier for this material to fall to the bottom. Of course that depends on the size of the material.

Is slotted casing commercially available? I also thought about setting the pump at the bottom of the solid casing, since I'll still have 35' of water over it.

 

[Ballvalve]

The only issue is predicting when and how much sand or rock will let go. Maybe never, perhaps tonight.

Yes, slotted and V wire casing is a huge industry. Typically there is a gravel pack around the outside of it and the bore hole.

You can slot a liner with a skil saw.

Take a look at Johnson screens on the net.

 

[Valveman]

>I also thought about setting the pump at the bottom of the solid casing, since I'll still have 35' of water over it.

Water standing over a pump is not necessarily a good thing. A well that feeds a pump from the top can cause the motor to overheat. Water must flow past the motor to keep it cool. The motor is on the bottom and the pump is on the top. So water needs to come from below the pump/motor, not from the top. You can set a pump down as deep in solid casing as you like, as long as it has a cooling shroud or flow inducer sleeve. This can be made out of 4” thin wall PVC pipe. A flow inducer sleeve that is longer than the pump/motor and sticks down below the motor a couple of feet can also help keep you from pumping sediment. Below the motor, the velocity in the 4” sleeve is so slow that heavy sediment will settle out to the bottom and only water will come up to enter the pump.

A liner with gravel pack will help stabilize the well and keep sediment from breaking off. However, a 4” liner is too small to get a flow inducer sleeve inside of. So you need to use perforated casing at the bottom only, so the flow will come up to the pump for cooling of the motor.

 

[Gary Slusser]

He had rock and muck on top of the pump. He will have it again very soon. If you guys ever did any mining, you would know that nature abhors a void and is always trying to fill a hole back in.

To really do it right, it should be gravel packed too.

I just reread all that he (ronaldg) has said and I can't find any mention of "rock and muck" anywhere but in your post. Along with your statement that his well will collapse soon.

I see he is incorrectly assuming his well may collapse, but there is no evidence that it has or will. He mistakenly thought initially that it had and that the torque arrestor wasn't the problem but then found out it was the only cause of the stuck pump.

I have pulled many pumps in 6" rock bore wells in PA that were up to 50 years old and with many of them I was pulling the pump for the first time since it was installed up to 30-35 years ago.

Those wells were not lined and I never heard of one collapsing. Nor did the pumps have a "flow inducer sleeve" for motor cooling and the wells all fed from above the pump.

Now all of a sudden it's 2000 whatever and there has to be a liner and slots/screens and gravel packs and sleeves in rock bore wells!

Up until 10 years ago, PA had the largest number of wells of any state, then TX took over the record. IMO drillers are reducing the ID of the casing to save money and having to go to liners etc. and calling it better than how the old guys did it when craftsmanship and long term quality was important. We call it progress today but wells aren't lasting as long and have more problems than before while being more expensive. Kinda reminds me of our government situation today; all that progressive BS is killing us and the US.

As to mines, I was born and lived most of my 68 years in northeast/central PA where coal and iron mines are very common, it used to be the coal mining capital of the word for like a 100+ years, and mines are everywhere you look. So I know a bit about mine subsidence and how they are constructed and I wouldn't compare a 6" rock bore well with any mine. And I wouldn't expect a rock bore mine to look like a nice clean straight hole drilled through hardwood as ronaldg here seems to think and then when it isn't he wants a liner etc. to prevent what very probably isn't going to happen anyway; especially when he says his well is in granite. Central/NE PA doesn't have granite, it has lots of layer upon layer of limestone and other rock and the rock bore wells there haven't been and aren't collapsing.

 

[Ballvalve]

The guy said they had rockledges and rock stocking out and thought it might be collapsing.

4" liner here is 80 cents a foot. Collapsing, shifting, sharp rocks: all high chances for issues with pulling and abrasion.

Where are you going to get a lifetime insurance policy on your well bore for about 200$? Allstate?

Sure unlined wells work, but the few I have left keep getting shallower when changing pumps. Best advantage is no more wire abrasion issues and no thought about using torque arrestors or centerers.

I just filled in a 80'x150' cave in that took out a road, so I know about mines.

Last week they were debating "risking" pulling those chilean miners out of a 18" hole WITHOUT casing or taking the time to line it. That should make my point.

 

[ncgeo]

I just reread all that he (ronaldg) has said and I can't find any mention of "rock and muck" anywhere but in your post. Along with your statement that his well will collapse soon.

I see he is incorrectly assuming his well may collapse, but there is no evidence that it has or will. He mistakenly thought initially that it had and that the torque arrestor wasn't the problem but then found out it was the only cause of the stuck pump.

I have pulled many pumps in 6" rock bore wells in PA that were up to 50 years old and with many of them I was pulling the pump for the first time since it was installed up to 30-35 years ago.

Those wells were not lined and I never heard of one collapsing. Nor did the pumps have a "flow inducer sleeve" for motor cooling and the wells all fed from above the pump.

Now all of a sudden it's 2000 whatever and there has to be a liner and slots/screens and gravel packs and sleeves in rock bore wells!

Up until 10 years ago, PA had the largest number of wells of any state, then TX took over the record. IMO drillers are reducing the ID of the casing to save money and having to go to liners etc. and calling it better than how the old guys did it when craftsmanship and long term quality was important. We call it progress today but wells aren't lasting as long and have more problems than before while being more expensive. Kinda reminds me of our government situation today; all that progressive BS is killing us and the US.

As to mines, I was born and lived most of my 68 years in northeast/central PA where coal and iron mines are very common, it used to be the coal mining capital of the word for like a 100+ years, and mines are everywhere you look. So I know a bit about mine subsidence and how they are constructed and I wouldn't compare a 6" rock bore well with any mine. And I wouldn't expect a rock bore mine to look like a nice clean straight hole drilled through hardwood as ronaldg here seems to think and then when it isn't he wants a liner etc. to prevent what very probably isn't going to happen anyway; especially when he says his well is in granite. Central/NE PA doesn't have granite, it has lots of layer upon layer of limestone and other rock and the rock bore wells there haven't been and aren't collapsing.

I do believe the torque arrestor was the main cause of the pump hanging up. I installed a new pump without one, and there is absolutely no resistance when the pump is pulled up a few feet. Unlike when the original pump was put in, when there was some resistance encountered in a few places. But the sand I started pumping is coming from somewhere, and the pump was 55' off the bottom. So I think there is some erosion of the wall, although may not be major at this time.

The existence of ledges in the bore hole brings another concern with chafing the pump wire. I'm installing a CSV to minimize the cycling when most of the movement occurs. And also came up with the sleeve idea. Based on my observation when the well was drilled the original pump depth of 95' was above the water-producing zone ao there would be no overheating of the motor. As would hanging the pump at the bottom of the existing solid casing. Sleeving would seem to be relatively cheap insurance to avoid losing a perfectly good well from a piece of rubble at pump replacement time. Yes you could argue in the unlikely event that does occur just drill a new well nearby. However due to the terrain that would require traversing a long concrete driveway with a large drilling rig, possibly causing damage. So in my case it is more than an issue with the cost of a replacement well.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The cable should be taped every 10' and a cable guard installed every 20-25'.

If you can't get a rig to the well, how would you install a liner now?

Sand means it is being washed in by water and the sand then falls past the pump inlet and it's being drawn in to the pump when it runs. IMO that means some of your water is flowing into the well above the pump and down to the pump, not up from beneath the pump; unless your static water level stays stationary while you use water.

A liner that is 4" ID with a 3 1/8" pump in it allows a 1/16th inch of clearance around the pump. That means little heat dissipation or cooling to me. And although I like CSVs, the pump runs constantly for some time which builds heat, although not as much as cycling the pump while showering or filling a tub might. What happens if the pump's heat someday warms up and weakens the PVC and it deforms and prevents the pump form being pulled? What happens if you install a liner which prevents a sleeve to make water flow up around the motor and sand builds up on top and around the pump in the 4" PVC and you can't get the pump out? Didn't Valveman say that you can't put a sleeved pump in a 5" liner? You probably can in your 6" well.

I'd logically compare those possibilities to a potential collapse of your 6" dia rock bore well.

 

[Ballvalve]

2 guys and a dog can set 300' of liner in about 3 hours or less with a good set of block clamps. If you cut a slot in the liner near the bottom, you can lower it with a rope with a hook on the end, with the blocks as a safety. When it bottoms out, the hook releases and you can pull up the rope. In that way you don't need to wait for the joints to dry. No rig needed.

You get about 3/8" around the pump which is plenty, and becomes a very efficient cooling sleeve if there is some bottom feed. Even without, Franklin only wants a sleeve over 1.5 hp lately.

To melt the sleeve you would need the motor to start on fire, essentially. Never had a problem with mine.

 

[ncgeo]

That's a pretty creative idea, using a drop rope to lower the liner and having it disconnect when it hits bottom. Though with my luck the hook would hang up and I'd be hauling out the liner to retreive the rope!

I'm not pursuing the liner at this time, but will keep this discussion in mind if I ever do move forward with it.