Strange pressure loss over Fleck 5600 SXT & SS bypass

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smo0thie

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So that is the CSV doing its job. So what is this 25 psi pressure drop you are talking about? Are you saying that when you put a garden hose thread pressure gauge on the drain for the WH or a laundry tap, that during backwash that gauge reads 28 psi?

I have three gauges at the well. One on the well head before the CSV, one after the CSV and before the filter, and one after the filter (the one I’m calling house pressure). I’m getting a 27psi drop (53psi before and 26psi after) during backwash. From what I read, this is normal and so I’m not concerned about it. I also have one hose bib before the filter and one after the filter at the well to check the neutralizing effectiveness of the filter. These are what I used to check the pressures with the garden hose gauge against the installed gauges as you recommended. As I mentioned earlier, this revealed the gauges to be inaccurate, which I since corrected by relieving the oil-filled pressure (never knew you had to do this) to atmosphere. When the pump is not running all three gauges now read the same.

Here is a photo of the setup, but ignore the pressures as this was before I fixed the gauges:

01A24AE8-21FD-4F2C-B487-64827C2B4B01.jpeg


So during RR, you have 53 to 70 psi out of the CSV, but the water pressure in the house goes negative? That would be your main complaint, right?

Yes.


Or are you also saying that in service (filter not regenerating), you have 53 to 70 psi out of the CSV, but the water pressure in the house drops to the twenties?

No. In service I have no issues. I just checked again to be sure, with a garden hose running on full I timed a 5 gallon bucket being filled to overflow in about 41 seconds. So over 7gpm. House-side gauge at the well was reading 50psi, and 54psi out of the CSV.
 

Reach4

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I suspect you could have run for a couple of years not noticing a pressure drop to the house during RR, since that regen was during the night.

My 5600SXT iron+H2S filter does not use the “Fltr” setting. I expect I have the standard softener downflow piston, 60102-71, with the green top. This is because my filter does draw from a solution tank, rather than just backwash and RR.

If you have a green top piston, we can discuss potential settings change.

If you have a different piston, we can search out info for that piston.
 

smo0thie

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That’s possible that it could have been present but unnoticed. There is air getting into the system somehow now so there’s no missing it the morning after a BW. the system holds pressure very well when in service mode, and there’s no leaks, except for perhaps some very minor leaks. There is no noticeable pressure loss.

I took the valve off and took it apart. It’s a green cap valve:

40C1FA30-BA65-44DE-B0BA-8D1BA525882F.jpeg


There was no noticeable debris anywhere in the valve. The piston was a bit difficult to remove, as were the spacers. I removed the injector assembly and also found nothing.

Here are the positions of the main drive gear during the three cycles:

In service:

AE3AD618-6CCF-4BF6-A9D1-926501EF8B17.jpeg


Backwash:

56866795-9DB5-4D89-B21B-D87F0639C1AE.jpeg


Rapid Rinse:

02B86772-DED4-46B8-B1E3-8AC84259150B.jpeg


At this point I would guess there maybe some settings to change. I’m stumped as to what else it could be. In modes other than RR, the inlet, outlet and drain line flow normally.
 

Reach4

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OK, green. After reviewing things, I think the green-cap piston is used for both filter and downflow softener use with the 5600sxt. Yet I am not totally sure. When putting this back together, you should lightly lube piston, seals and o-rings with Dow Corning 7 Release Compound or Chemplex 862 .

Write down all of your current settings.

I would then try these settings.

DF= GAL
VT= dF1b
CT= tc
NT= 1
DO= 3 #if you want to backwash every 3 days. 7 may be appropriate
RT= 3:40 AM #choose your own time. I chose 3:40 to not clash with softener
BW= 10
BD= 1 # I assume this will do nothing since brine line port is plugged
RR= 5 #or whatever time you want.
BF= 0 #zero ends the processing.

If no improvement, go back to your current settings.
 

Reach4

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I do not have either of those in hand. I used Oatey silicon grease. Would this cause any issues?
I doubt it. The 5600sxt piston is slow moving, so probably fine. I have looked to find the viscosity of the Danco grease. Similarly I don't find viscosity for Oatey silicone grease.

5810 pistons move much faster, and there it can make a difference.

I look forward to your results.
 

smo0thie

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I should have mentioned that prior to pulling the valve today I ran it through a BW cycle and got slightly better results. Pressures and flow were the same during the BW stage, but during RR instead of going to zero, it held at 10psi, and measured drain line flow was about 1.5gpm. The pump was not shutting off, which is good. Not sure why the overnight improvement, but perhaps the frequent backwashing flushed something out.

After disassembling, greasing, and re-assembling the valve, I ran it through another BW cycle with the same settings and there was some improvement during RR. I was getting about 15psi house-side with both the FLtr and dF1b during RR and drain flow improved to just about 4.5gpm. I changed the settings to those you recommended, but there was no change. I went back and forth between the two settings a few times to be sure. I also took another photo of the piston gear in RR with the settings you advised and they appear identical:

Original settings RR:

8EC31C9E-CB86-4B43-8A3E-251D229E9A82.jpeg


dF1b settings RR:

1F5B7277-8E4D-43F0-A179-FD6C914E8EF4.jpeg


I have been meaning to change the settings on the pressure switch and CSV since installing the new pump, so I did that. Previously, (with my newly corrected gauges) cut-on pressure was 45psi and cut-off pressure was 70psi. CSV was about 54psi. I changed this to 50/70psi and the CSV to 60psi. There was a slight improvement in both BW and RR, with BW house pressure increasing from 26psi to 28psi, and RR increasing from 15psi to about 17.5psi. While this isn’t enough to provide any real pressure at the house, it should keep enough pressure to prevent the house from draining back through the filter drain line.

I’m thinking there is perhaps some slight issue with the valve seals. One of the seals (the bottom one) appeared slightly thinner than the rest. Are they all supposed to be the same? If they are supposed to be the same seals, I may swap the bottom one for the top one and see what happens.

I’m also wondering if the internal program stop points for the piston gear are off slightly from the the seals I have. I don’t see anyway of tweaking that, but I wonder if I could manually rotate the piston gear slightly and get better flow/pressure rates. Not sure that I could do anything with that info without being able to change the motor’s stop points.

Just curious, do you get good flow/pressure during RR? I see pressure ratings for BW, but none for RR. I wonder what is normal?
 

Reach4

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Looking again at the diagram, I guess flows are different than I was thinking. I had been thinking the valve was in internal bypass at that point. I would appear that the media is in the path between inlet and outlet during RR. So that would seem to say that your media offers considerable backpressure during RR. You have said that the media does not offer a lot of backpressure during service.
index.php


I was getting about 15psi house-side
Is that with the house not consuming water?

I’m thinking there is perhaps some slight issue with the valve seals. One of the seals (the bottom one) appeared slightly thinner than the rest. Are they all supposed to be the same?
I am pretty sure they are all the same. I don't see how a seal could cause your symptom.

On adjusting your pressure, how about 55/75?
 

smo0thie

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Looking again at the diagram, I guess flows are different than I was thinking. I had been thinking the valve was in internal bypass at that point. I would appear that the media is in the path between inlet and outlet during RR. So that would seem to say that your media offers considerable backpressure during RR. You have said that the media does not offer a lot of backpressure during service.

I don’t see how the back pressure could change through the media with the same flow direction. Remember, flow was actually reversed during RR, with the only pressure being created to rinse coming from the house, as it was draining from the house (until today). The pump would shut-off and the drain would flow with water from the house. This would indicate water was blocked so bad, the gravity pressure from the house was actually slowly back washing the media. So back pressure couldn’t have caused that.

With improvements made with greasing the seals, it seams somehow related to how everything is lining up internally. The diagram, I have come to realize, is not exactly accurate but more instructional. Being a 2d representation of a 3 dimensional valve this is to be expected.

Do you get usable pressure during RR? Being 20’ above the well with 17.5psi, I get very little. Pre-CSV pressure is somewhere around 150 or so (can’t remember exactly), clearly not a pump problem.
index.php



Is that with the house not consuming water?

That’s right, no water consumption. It’s now at 17.5psi after changing the CSV pressure.


I am pretty sure they are all the same. I don't see how a seal could cause your symptom.

I was wondering how close the clearances are in the valve during RR. Perhaps a mm could change the pressure/flow substantially. Idk.

On adjusting your pressure, how about 55/75?

I could try that. Not sure how much you can crank the pressure switch without affecting the springs too much. But I’d still like to know what I should be getting during RR. I would think it should be similar to the BW stage.
 

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I could try that. Not sure how much you can crank the pressure switch without affecting the springs too much. But I’d still like to know what I should be getting during RR. I would think it should be similar to the BW stage.
Looking at the diagrams, the water flows from input to output (to the house) during backwash. In RR, the water is routed down through the media, so has pressure drop not present during backwash.
 

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The seals are all identical and they may be installed in any order and with either surface facing upward.

RR should be flowing to the drain, not the house plumbing otherwise, faucets would need to be open for RR to take place. If there is a worn/defective seal that is resulting in a connection of the house plumbing with the open drain line during RR, that would provide a reasonable explanation why the downstream pressure to the home is reduced while RR is occurring.

Suggest rebuilding the valve by installing a new seal & spacer kit. I do not observe any scratches or flaking Teflon coating on the existing piston so the piston likely will not require replacement.
 

Reach4

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R should be flowing to the drain, not the house plumbing otherwise, faucets would need to be open for RR to take place. If there is a worn/defective seal that is resulting in a connection of the house plumbing with the open drain line during RR, that would provide a reasonable explanation why the downstream pressure to the home is reduced while RR is occurring.
The main problem seems to be that during RR, the house sees very reduced pressure. The valve runs the water going to the drain and the water going to the house through the media during RR. There is significant pressure drop thru the media.

The calcite may be too fine.
 

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I continue to suspect a large portion of the media has clumped and hardened into a solid mass so water flow through the media will be restricted to a few channels which are carved through or around the edges of the media.

When water flow is downward such as during RR, the channels may be becoming filled with the newer loose media from the top, but during backwash, the loose media may be pushed upward and out from the channels, thereby improving flow through the channels during backwash.

If the media is restricting flow, then the water to pass through the media during RR maybe significantly less than the DLFC rate, thereby substantially lowering the pressure to house fixtures during RR since the majority of flow that is passing through the media, will be exiting out through the drain line, leaving little remaining pressure for house fixtures.

Since it was mentioned that at least one seal appears somewhat different than the others, it would seem apparent that replacing the seals should be carried out.
 
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Reach4

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I continue to suspect a large portion of the media has clumped and hardened into a solid mass so water flow through the media will be restricted to a few channels which are carved through or around the edges of the media.

When water flow is downward such as during RR, the channels may be becoming filled with the newer loose media from the top, but during backwash, the loose media may be pushed upward and out from the channels, thereby improving flow through the channels during backwash.
Makes sense.
 

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Looking at the diagrams, the water flows from input to output (to the house) during backwash. In RR, the water is routed down through the media, so has pressure drop not present during backwash.

True. I was forgetting about that.


The seals are all identical and they may be installed in any order and with either surface facing upward.

RR should be flowing to the drain, not the house plumbing otherwise, faucets would need to be open for RR to take place. If there is a worn/defective seal that is resulting in a connection of the house plumbing with the open drain line during RR, that would provide a reasonable explanation why the downstream pressure to the home is reduced while RR is occurring.

Suggest rebuilding the valve by installing a new seal & spacer kit. I do not observe any scratches or flaking Teflon coating on the existing piston so the piston likely will not require replacement.

From what I can tell in the diagram, the connection between the drain and outlet (house) is present by design internally in the valve during RR.

I will order new spacers and seals to see what happens. Any benefit to swapping the piston to the black “filter only” capped piston? Would it even work on a SXT?

I continue to suspect a large portion of the media has clumped and hardened into a solid mass so water flow through the media will be restricted to a few channels which are carved through or around the edges of the media.

When water flow is downward such as during RR, the channels may be becoming filled with the newer loose media from the top, but during backwash, the loose media may be pushed upward and out from the channels, thereby improving flow through the channels during backwash.

If the media is restricting flow, then the water to pass through the media during RR maybe significantly less than the DLFC rate, thereby substantially lowering the pressure to house fixtures during RR since the majority of flow that is passing through the media, will be exiting out through the drain line, leaving little remaining pressure for house fixtures.

Since it was mentioned that at least one seal appears somewhat different than the others, it would seem apparent that replacing the seals should be carried out.

The issue I’m having with the media channelling is how with the same flow path in service, I’m getting substantially more flow than in RR. I can put a 5gpm flow at the well during in service (to match the 5gpm out the drain line during RR), and I still get good pressure at the house. If it was the media, I would expect similar pressure drops in that scenario.

I’m not saying there’s absolutely no channelling or clumping, there obviously was when I first added new media, but trying to wrap my head around the idea that it could be so different with the same flow path through the media.
 

Reach4

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I will order new spacers and seals to see what happens. Any benefit to swapping the piston to the black “filter only” capped piston? Would it even work on a SXT?
Not sure. I would not count on it.
 

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how with the same flow path in service, I’m getting substantially more flow than in RR.
While in Service mode, 100% of the flow passing through the media, or through channels through/around the media, will be available to the home's faucet(s).

While in RR mode, a large portion of water passing through the media will be flowing to drain. Water will always follow the path of least resistance. The pressure of the water exiting through the drain line will be reduced to 0 psi once it exits the drain line so the drain line will usually offer lower resistance to flow compared to the house plumbing.

When there is a substantial flow restriction through the media such as limiting flow to 5 GPM or less, with a 5 GPM or greater DLFC flow rate to drain, there will be little if any water and pressure remaining to supply house fixtures. To maintain sufficient pressure to house fixtures while RR is occurring, a greater amount of water will need to flow through the media than is exiting out the drain line.

Ditttohead posted the photo below showing a solid mass of Katalox Light media that was a result of inadequate backwashing. Similar can occur with Calcite.

index.php


As previously suggested, dump out the media to determine its current state. If the old media has clumped into a solid mass, then you may need to use a steel rod or chisel to break up the mass so as to remove smaller chunks that will fit through the tank opening. Some previous posters that experienced this same situation, decided to forego breaking up the solidified media, choosing to instead replace the tank, media, gravel, riser tube and bottom basket.
 
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smo0thie

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While in Service mode, 100% of the flow passing through the media, or through channels through/around the media, will be available to the home's faucet(s).

While in RR mode, a large portion of water passing through the media will be flowing to drain. Water will always follow the path of least resistance. The pressure of the water exiting through the drain line will be reduced to 0 psi once it exits the drain line so the drain line will usually offer lower resistance to flow compared to the house plumbing.

When there is a substantial flow restriction through the media such as limiting flow to 5 GPM or less, with a 5 GPM or greater DLFC flow rate to drain, there will be little if any water and pressure remaining to supply house fixtures. To maintain sufficient pressure to house fixtures while RR is occurring, a greater amount of water will need to flow through the media than is exiting out the drain line.

Ditttohead posted the photo below showing a solid mass of Katalox Light media that was a result of inadequate backwashing. Similar can occur with Calcite.

index.php


As previously suggested, dump out the media to determine its current state. If the old media has clumped into a solid mass, then you may need to use a steel rod or chisel to break up the mass so as to remove smaller chunks that will fit through the tank opening. Some previous posters that experienced this same situation, decided to forego breaking up the solidified media, choosing to instead replace the tank, media, gravel, riser tube and bottom basket.


Thanks for the input. I’m not ruling this out as a problem and will dump out the media to investigate further. Maybe the normal RR pressure drop through the valve plus the media clump combined is causing the whole problem. With the piston in a different position, I would expect increased friction loss through the valve during RR over in service, regardless of the drain flow. I’d still like to know what the pressure drop over the valve is supposed to be during RR. It would help me know what to expect after I replace the media.

If the drain line is in fact the path of least resistance as you said (and I agree), all else being the same, with the 250’ to my house plus 20’ elevation increase, I should get less flow at the house with the added friction loss and additional elevation (with the drain line not flowing) than when the only water flowing is at the less restrictive drain line. Is this agreed?

I have an idea to test what’s going on. What if I plug the drain line? I could set a garden hose at the house to flow 7gpm (or whatever). Then check pressures in service and during RR. With the flow paths being the same, the only difference would be the position of the piston in the valve.

I can do this much sooner than dumping out the tank, which I still plan on doing it just won’t be until later next week at the earliest.
 
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