Strange pressure loss over Fleck 5600 SXT & SS bypass

[smo0thie]

About 2 1/2 years ago I brought back a neglected AN upflow filter with a Fleck 5600 SXT BW valve with Fleck SS 1” bypass, new media (tank was empty down to the gravel bed), new riser tube and new diffuser. I set the backwash to run for 10 mins, followed by a 10 min rapid rinse, and set to run every three days. The DLFC was pre-installed at 5gpm.

Everything was working fine as far as I could tell up until around the beginning of this year when we started getting air and spitting every third morning after a backwash cycle. The pump was an old jet pump that I knew was struggling at the time, producing a mere 5gpm @ 25 psi at the well head. So I thought it was the pump not being able to pressurize the house during backwash.

Fast-forward to two days ago, me and my wife finally got around to installing a new Goulds 3/4hp 10gpm submersible pump. The problem did not go away. So after some investigating, I found a 25psi pressure drop from pump side to house side of the AN filter. The pressure drop remains when no water is flowing and also in bypass. All of the plumbing from the well seal to after the AN tank is all new. So this seams to point at the bypass. I know I read some reviews before purchasing the SS bypass as there is rubber in the bypass that appears to block the water passages, but others (here?) have stated that the rubber is easily pushed out of the way under pressure and is of little or no concern. Does anyone have any experience with these SS Fleck bypasses causing blockages? Would the plastic version be better?

Now this didn’t start happening until after about 1-1/2 years after install so I would imagine there’s something that built-up or got lodged in there causing complete blockage that can be moved with 25psi of pressure to explain the pressure differential to remain when water flow is static.

Another strange but I assume is related symptom is how different the BW and RR pressures are. During backwash the backwash pressure is great. It’s even better now that I removed the DLFC (more on that later). I installed a CSV1A with the pump and pump-side pressure stays at it’s setting of 53psi (48/68 pressure switch) during backwash, but the pressure house-side drops to 10psi, probably from the blockage. But during the RR cycle there is so little flow out of the drain line and pressure is still holding good at the CSV setting pump-side. Water will actually be flowing out of the house to RR the tank, and the pressure tank fills up and the pump shuts off. This is what is causing the air at the house. Something blocking the inlet side so much the pump with CSV is cycling and the drain flow is very slow.

In addition, I was watching the media during backwash, and it appeared expand the media I had just put in, but not the media that was in prior to that. Is this the result of poor backwash pressure from my previous pump causing channeling? Any way to fix this? Could these two problems somehow be related? Also removed the DLFC button to see if it would break-up some of the old media. It didn’t. From what I could see the media was only expanding roughly 4-5 inches and I just figured it would be much more than that.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jay

 

[Reach4]

The pressure drop remains when no water is flowing and also in bypass.

I don't see how you can get a 25 psi pressure drop when no water is flowing. If no water is flowing and you have 25 psi on once side of the bypass, and zero on the other side, that would be a total blockage.

If you have 50 psi upstream and 25 downstream of the bypass, then there is flow, or you have two pressure gauges with a 25 psi difference in calibration.

In addition, I was watching the media during backwash, and it appeared expand the media I had just put in, but not the media that was in prior to that. Is this the result of poor backwash pressure from my previous pump causing channeling? Any way to fix this? Could these two problems somehow be related? Also removed the DLFC button to see if it would break-up some of the old media. It didn’t. From what I could see the media was only expanding roughly 4-5 inches and I just figured it would be much more than that.

4 or 5 inches of bed expansion is significant. Could the old media be denser?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

From your description, I suspect the old media has become a solid mass at the bottom of the tank, likely occuring while the old pump was delivering reduced flow which may have been insufficient to backwash the media. It is likely the old media is the cause of the flow restriction.

The CSV will prevent the pump from shutting off when there is greater than 1 GPM flow. Since your current pump is shutting down while the acid neutralizer media backwash is occuring, this would indicate there is sufficient flow restriction to cause the flow rate to be less than 1 GPM.

Since you suspect the bypass valve is causing the restriction, it will be a simple matter to shut-off the well pump and to drain the system so as to remove the bypass valve completely from the yoke and control valve to inspect the internal water pathways through the BP-valve. Since the flow restriction is currently occuring, suggest not altering the bypass valve control before inspection so as to determine if there is any restriction with the control as it is positioned presently.

If there is a problem within the bypass valve, you could reconnect the yoke directly to the control valve without the bypass valve to restore water flow to your home. Once suitable repair or replacement of the bypass valve is obtained, the bypass valve may then be reinstalled.

It is likely you will need to remove the control valve so as to dump out the loose media from the tank so as to attempt to breakup the media clump at the bottom. Once the media clump is broken into smaller pieces that will fit through the tank opening, it will likely be best to replace that media with new.

You didn't mention which AN media is currently within the tank. You also did not specify the dimensions of the tank. The media type, tank diameter and incoming water temperature will determine the appropriate backwash rate needed.

 

[smo0thie]

Thanks for your replies.

I don't see how you can get a 25 psi pressure drop when no water is flowing. If no water is flowing and you have 25 psi on once side of the bypass, and zero on the other side, that would be a total blockage.

The fleck SS bypass has rubber valve components that, perhaps, could be displaced in a way that is a complete blockage until pressure is >25psi on the pump side of the blockage. When looking through the bypass when in service mode, the rubber appears to be blocking 75% of the 1” opening. I have read reviews of people criticizing this online, but others have said it isn’t an issue as it’s pushed aside under pressure.

From your description, I suspect the old media has become a solid mass at the bottom of the tank, likely occurring while the old pump was delivering reduced flow which may have been insufficient to backwash the media. It is likely the old media is the cause of the flow restriction…

…It is likely you will need to remove the control valve so as to dump out the loose media from the tank so as to attempt to breakup the media clump at the bottom. Once the media clump is broken into smaller pieces that will fit through the tank opening, it will likely be best to replace that media with new.

You didn't mention which AN media is currently within the tank. You also did not specify the dimensions of the tank. The media type, tank diameter and incoming water temperature will determine the appropriate backwash rate needed.

4 or 5 inches of bed expansion is significant. Could the old media be denser?

The tank is a 10x54 and the original media I used was the calcite from Aquascience.net and the package shows Specialty Minerals Inc. About a year ago (two top-offs now) I switched to 3M calcite. I remember looking into the media backwashing specs and based on everything I went with the 5gpm DLFC. Since noticing the gap between the new and old media during backwash, I removed the button.

The CSV will prevent the pump from shutting off when there is greater than 1 GPM flow. Since your current pump is shutting down while the acid neutralizer media backwash is occurring, this would indicate there is sufficient flow restriction to cause the flow rate to be less than 1 GPM.

So yesterday I checked again and the static pressures with the pump off were 68 at the well head, 65 between the CSV and AN filter, and 44 after the filter. So this was a 21psi drop with no water running. This also did not change at all when the bypass valve was put in bypass. When backwashing, after the pump kicks on the pressure at the well head was 135, and 52 after the CSV, but 0 on the house side of the filter. This is a change from two days ago when there was still 10psi house side. Maybe I removed the 5gpm DLFC after I noticed this and it dropped to 0 after I did, I can’t remember. But the flow was still good out of the drain line. During RR, pressure would rise to shut-off, but the drain line was maybe a 1gpm flow. House side was still 0.

I do suspect there may be an incorrect reading on the house-side gauge, although it’s new. I don’t think it’s the full 20-25 psi difference I’ve been seeing because of the fact that it’s partially the water from the house that was actually flowing back through the tank and valve during RR. With the highest second story plumbing around 36 feet above the well head, this would mean less than 16psi was house side during RR, and probably lower. My old gauge would read around 8psi, same tank and valve, but old pump. Seems not possible to even go to 0 with water in the house.

Also, the media seems to have loosened up now and there was no gap between new and old media that I could see. Since replacing the pump we were shocking the well, so not sure if the chlorine did anything there. I was also running extended backwashes, trying to get it to break-up so maybe that helped. I’m going to keep an eye on it but I don’t feel like wrestling the tank out of the well house if I don’t need to. I’m hoping to get to take the valve off the tank in the next day or two, and I’ll probably swap the two gauges around to see what happens.

 

[Reach4]

I do suspect there may be an incorrect reading on the house-side gauge, although it’s new. I don’t think it’s the full 20-25 psi difference I’ve been seeing because of the fact that it’s partially the water from the house that was actually flowing back through the tank and valve during RR.

I would try using the same gauge. You can get a garden hose thread pressure gauge. The upstream pressure could be measured at the drain valve at the pressure tank. The downstream pressure could be measured at a laundry tap or at the drain on the water heater.

A 0-100 psi gauge is better than 0-200 or 0-160.

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/pumps-and-pump-parts/pressure-gauges/4509477
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Source-Water-Test-Pressure-Gauge-WSPGH100/308724108
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Water-Pressure-Test-Gauge-100-Psi-Water-Source-WSPHG100/45821925

 

[smo0thie]

I would try using the same gauge. You can get a garden hose thread pressure gauge. The upstream pressure could be measured at the drain valve at the pressure tank. The downstream pressure could be measured at a laundry tap or at the drain on the water heater.

A 0-100 psi gauge is better than 0-200 or 0-160.

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/pumps-and-pump-parts/pressure-gauges/4509477
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Source-Water-Test-Pressure-Gauge-WSPGH100/308724108
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Water-Pressure-Test-Gauge-100-Psi-Water-Source-WSPHG100/45821925

Thank you for that! Don’t know why I didn’t think to do that. I actually have one that I forgot about. It’s a 0-200 psi, but works good enough.

Progress! But still not fixed. So I checked the pressures against the garden hose gauge and sure enough, the house-side gauge was way off. What I learned is those gauges need to have the pressure relieved after installing, which I never knew. There’s a sticker with a picture of the top of the rubber plug being cut as to allow the back side of the gauge to adjust to atmosphere, but missed that.

Now we have equalized pressures on both sides of the filter tank when static. So the bypass valve is not of any concern and appears to be functioning properly. The problem seems to be with the valve itself. I am now reading 70psi on all three gauges while static; well head/pre CSV, post CSV/pre-filter, and post-filter/house-side. During backwash I’m getting 135psi head, 53psi pre-filter, and 26 post-filter. A 27 psi pressure loss, which is inline with the 5600’s spec sheet of 25psi pressure drop through the valve only with 7gpm backwash. The other 2psi is probably the media itself, tank riser and other plumbing, plus the rating is at 50psi inlet and I’m a little above that at 53psi. The main issue is still during the rapid rinse cycle. There is almost no flow from the inlet/pump side of the tank during RR. The well head pressure will rise to 170psi and post CSV/pre-filter will rise to 70psi and the pressure switch will cut-off the pump. Post filter/house-side pressure will gradually fall as water flows back from the house through the filter and out the drain tube, even before the pump shuts off. When I close the ball valve to the house, the pressure house-side falls to zero (gauge is upstream of the ball valve). There is something in the valve during RR that is blocking the flow from the inlet or from the riser tube, but allowing flow from the house. I guess it’s time to take the valve apart and take a look inside.

 

[smo0thie]

One other thing; I have been trying to find specs on the 3M calcite media for bed depth, backwash flow rates, etc., but can’t. I’m wondering if I should have this tank setup differently than I do. The one spec sheet I keep coming across for calcite (Clack, I believe) shows a bed depth of 24”-30”, with a minimum expansion rate of 12%. From what I figure, 60F water temp (guess) and a 10” tank (0.55ft^2 bed area) I need a minimum of roughly 6.6gpm backwash to hit 12% expansion. I’m also at about a 34” bed depth. Not sure where I got it from, but I remember thinking I needed to fill 2/3rds of the tank height with calcite. Judging by the data sheet, I’m over-filling. Thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

During backwash I’m getting 135psi head

I think you are referring to the pressure before the CSV. That is OK, and normal. Usually people don't have a gauge on the input to the CSV. It certainly shows that the pump has plenty of capacity for the backwash.

Oooh... I just had a thought. Is that gauge on a port of the CSV? If so, you installed the CSV backwards. Check the arrow.

I’m also at about a 34” bed depth. Not sure where I got it from, but I remember thinking I needed to fill 2/3rds of the tank height with calcite. Judging by the data sheet, I’m over-filling.

If you can get the bed expansion, I don't think that you are having a problem there. Are you measuring from the floor? Try measuring from above the bottom dome to just below the top dome. You might find yourself closer to 2/3.

 

[smo0thie]

I think you are referring to the pressure before the CSV. That is OK, and normal. Usually people don't have a gauge on the input to the CSV. It certainly shows that the pump has plenty of capacity for the backwash.

Oooh... I just had a thought. Is that gauge on a port of the CSV? If so, you installed the CSV backwards. Check the arrow.

The first “well head” gauge is installed on a tee right as the drop pipe comes out of the seal. I installed the gauge because I was curious to know what pressures would be reached under low flow conditions with the CSV, as I learned of the new “high-head” pump designs after I bought the pump reading their older, lower pressure designs. I was concerned of exceeding the common 160psi 1-1/4” poly pipe’s operating pressure, so I bought 200psi poly. I was told I would be fine with 160psi pipe, but I just wouldn’t feel right designing a system that would exceed rated pipe pressure every time the pump runs. I was anticipating the high pressures and wasn’t asserting they were a problem, just a reference that shows the pump isn’t part of the problem. The CSV is installed and functioning properly.

If you can get the bed expansion, I don't think that you are having a problem there. Are you measuring from the floor? Try measuring from above the bottom dome to just below the top dome. You might find yourself closer to 2/3.

I set the tank up with the fill line at 2/3rds, I can’t remember why that is now. I measured from the approximate bottom of the tank, not the bottom of the “seat” in sits in. There were no charts that I could find that adjust expansion rates for bed depth, but this would seem like it would matter. I would prefer to re-install the 5gpm DLFC button if it would produce an effective backwash, as the 25psi pressure drop with no DLFC button (7gpm) during BW with the 5600 SXT is quite a big penalty. I work random hours so there is no time of day BW time that would avoid water use, albeit seldom.

I was just trying to figure out the reasons for minimum and maximum bed depths to better understand where my limitations for effectiveness of neutralizing, backwashing, and media loss are. I get that, during use, bed depth would need to be sufficient to obtain minimum contact time to neutralize, but why the maximum? Just media loss and pressure loss concern?

Any advice on the 5600’s tear-down? What to look for with this specific blockage problem?

Thanks again for any help.

 

[Reach4]

The first “well head” gauge is installed on a tee right as the drop pipe comes out of the seal. I installed the gauge because I was curious to know what pressures would be reached under low flow conditions with the CSV, as I learned of the new “high-head” pump designs after I bought the pump reading their older, lower pressure designs.

Cool. Makes sense.

I was just trying to figure out the reasons for minimum and maximum bed depths to better understand where my limitations for effectiveness of neutralizing, backwashing, and media loss are. I get that, during use, bed depth would need to be sufficient to obtain minimum contact time to neutralize, but why the maximum? Just media loss and pressure loss concern?

I would think that plus room to expand the bed without blowing media out the top during backwash, which is the media loss you were talking about.

Any advice on the 5600’s tear-down? What to look for with this specific blockage problem?

Care to review that blockage thing with the new pressure drop info? Are you talking about in-service forward pressure drop?

 

[smo0thie]

Care to review that blockage thing with the new pressure drop info? Are you talking about in-service forward pressure drop?

The blockage I’m referring to is during rapid rinse, when almost no pressure is getting from the inlet of the 5600 to either the drain line or downstream to the house. The incorrect gauge readings were misleading as to what exactly was going on, but the main problem still exists. During rapid rinse, insufficient pressure is getting through to even keep water in the house plumbing, causing air and spitting at the house after a BW cycle. It is also insufficient to even have anything more than a slow trickle out of the drain line during rapid rinse.

 

[smo0thie]

Does anyone have a close up of the 5600 SXT backwash filter only diagrams? I am trying to diagnose what might be the issue before I take it apart. The diagrams I’m seeing in the manual are small and blurry, can’t really see what’s going on.

 

[Reach4]

About 2 1/2 years ago I brought back a neglected AN upflow filter with a Fleck 5600 SXT BW valve

What is the VT in setup?
What color is the cap on your piston?

I am trying to diagnose what might be the issue before I take it apart. The diagrams I’m seeing in the manual are small and blurry, can’t really see what’s going on.

What is the part number and rev of the manual you are looking at?

I don't know if the attached image will help anything.

 

[smo0thie]

Thanks Reach! Could not find one that clear with a google search.

What is the VT in setup?

I will double check the VT setting, perhaps that’s the problem. Hmmmm… I could see that placing the piston in an incorrect position if set wrong. I don’t remember changing any settings at anytime, but maybe I was looking in the settings and inadvertently changed it by mistake. Makes me want to run down there right now.

What color is the cap on your piston?

Had the back off the other day, but can’t remember for the life of me what color it was. Gonna try to get down there tomorrow to get this thing figured out.

What is the part number and rev of the manual you are looking at?

I don’t see a part number on the manual, but it’s from Pure Aqua, but I have looked a multiple others online including the one on Pentair’s website.

 

[smo0thie]

Well I just couldn’t stand it and went down to the well to check. The VT is set to “Fltr”. Was getting my hopes up it would be that easy of a fix, but no luck.

 

[Reach4]

So let's go over your symptoms as I understand them, and you correct them if not right.
1. during backwash,
_1a, you get a big flow through the drain line (probably 5 gpm)
_1b. and the house gets full normal pressure during that time such as full flow while running water into the tub.

2. during rapid rinse
_2a. you get a weak flow through the drain line ( 2 gpm maybe)
_2b. flow to the house is weaker, such as weak flow when running water into the tub.

During backwash the flow is up, and the media is fluffed up. During rapid rinse, the media is being packed down. I am not a pro. For all I know it is reasonable and expected that flow to the drain line would be less as the media is packed denser. But I don't understand how that would affect the flow to the house (1b and 2b).

 

[smo0thie]

Not exactly.

During backwash I am getting great flow out the drain line. At least 7gpm. I removed the 6gpm (I previously and incorrectly stated it was a 5gpm button, but looked at it last night and it’ was actually 6gpm) DLFC button so it’s at least flowing the 5600’s max 7gpm. They do make a 7gpm button, so maybe more with none installed? I’m getting a 27psi pressure drop on the house side, but according to the 5600’s spec sheet, this is normal (25psi pressure drop @ 50psi inlet pressure with a 7gpm backwash). My inlet (CSV) setting is 53 psi. Water is still descent at the house.

During the rapid rinse cycle, the drain line is much reduced, maybe 2gpm, but this is actually the pressure from the house draining back to the well (main floor is 20’ above well head), and not the pump. Faucets will suck air and there is no usable water at the house. Pressure house side at the well will just drop as water drains out of the house, all the way to zero. The drain line will slow with house-side pressure drop to a trickle when house -side pressure is zero. If I shut the water off to the house, I still get a trickle. Regardless of wether or not the water to the house is shut off, the pressure pump side of the filter will raise to pressure switch cut-off and the pump will stop. The trickle of water out the drain line will take several minutes (I might time this today) so less than 1gpm is getting through the valve to the drain.

This problem wasn’t always present, it showed up at the beginning of the year, but with my tired pump and before troubleshooting, I chalked it up to the weak pump. It wasn’t until I recently changed to my new pump that I realized it was actually something with the filter.

 

[Reach4]

I’m getting a 27psi pressure drop on the house side, but according to the 5600’s spec sheet, this is normal (25psi pressure drop @ 50psi inlet pressure with a 7gpm backwash). My inlet (CSV) setting is 53 psi. Water is still descent at the house.

During backwash, what is the pressure before and after the CSV?

During the rapid rinse cycle, the drain line is much reduced, maybe 2gpm, but this is actually the pressure from the house draining back to the well (main floor is 20’ above well head), and not the pump.

During RR, hat is the pressure before and after the CSV?

 

[smo0thie]

During backwash, what is the pressure before and after the CSV?

During RR, hat is the pressure before and after the CSV?

During backwash the pressure before the CSV is 135psi and after is 53psi.

During rapid rinse the pressure before the CSV is 170psi and after will rise to 70psi and will be shut off by the pressure switch.

 

[Reach4]

During backwash the pressure before the CSV is 135psi and after is 53psi.

So that is the CSV doing its job. So what is this 25 psi pressure drop you are talking about? Are you saying that when you put a garden hose thread pressure gauge on the drain for the WH or a laundry tap, that during backwash that gauge reads 28 psi?

During rapid rinse the pressure before the CSV is 170psi and after will rise to 70psi and will be shut off by the pressure switch.

So during RR, you have 53 to 70 psi out of the CSV, but the water pressure in the house goes negative? That would be your main complaint, right?

Or are you also saying that in service (filter not regenerating), you have 53 to 70 psi out of the CSV, but the water pressure in the house drops to the twenties?