Storage Tank Float Switch Control System

[Cabin Guy]

Thanks again, Cary.
In regards to the timer - that well manager system doesn't depend on the voltage change to tell it that the well is pumping dry - but instead uses a percentage or programmable timer to just cycle the well at regular intervals until the tank fills (but is ideal where we are not at the cabin for weeks at a time - giving it time to gather a bunch of water without putting too much stress on the pump). Does that make sense? Was going to put something like this in series with the rest of the control wiring. Or, am I overthinking it?

Other question - for the jet pump, any brand in particular that you recommend? Seems like the Goulds pumps are well reviewed on line (https://www.amazon.com/Goulds-J5S-S...&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1#customerReviews)
Any thoughts there would be appreciated.

 

[shane21]

You can use a programmable timer to cycle the well but they are tough to dial in correctly since many low production wells produce less water after they have been run continuously for a while and may also lose overall production values over time requiring you to then adjust the programming again for the new well production values. Products that actually monitor the electrical signature of the motor, or load sensors as they are sometimes generically referred to in the industry, to turn the pump off when the well is pumped dry are used more often because they automatically protect the pump from dry run conditions and don't need to be tweaked if well production varies. I would always recommend a load sensor type control but if you are the type that likes to tinker with and monitor that stuff you can use a programmable timer.

Depending on your situation a certain load sensor may work better for you than another. Cary's Cycle Sensor product is a good fit for a lot of applications you but if you have a deep enough well and a check valve installed directly on top of a submersible pump you may find that 10 seconds of dry run time is enough to cause the pump to air lock and require longer intervals between pumping cycles. I usually opt for the PumpSaver Plus because it shuts the pump off within about 1.5 seconds of running dry making a potential air lock issue less likely. More than anything we use it because it works as well as any product we have seen over the wide variety of situations we encounter.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

You won't air lock a pump with a Cycle Sensor. Actually the Cycle Sensor is sensitive enough to set the amps to shut off the pump just before the pump runs dry if you wanted. But letting it run dry for a few seconds is the norm and doesn't hurt anything. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and I certainly have no problem with the way a Well Manager works. Well Manager has been using Cycle Stop Valves to control their systems for many years. My friend Andy Reid passed away, may he rest in piece, but the company is still going strong.

 

[Cabin Guy]

Thank you both for your replies. The current set up (before I undertake any of these other changes) includes a Coyote System protection circuit. Is that a good cycle sensor - or is that part of my problem, that I need to upgrade to something faster and/or more sensitive to changes?

Also, would one or both of you comment on my question about the jet pump options. Seem to be a lot of them - and had one in particular from Goulds that would be great to get your feedback on (above).

Thank you again.

 

[Valveman]

Goulds J series pumps are good. The Coyote is also good as long as you don't have a CSV. They just are not sensitive enough to know the difference between low amps from the CSV or low amps from running dry like a Cycle Sensor is.

 

[shane21]

I am assuming the Coyote is on the well pump system feeding the reservoir system correct? If so you shouldn't need any other mechanisms to protect that well pump from dry run conditions as long as you adjust the Coyote correctly. I am a big fan of the Goulds JS+ series shallow well jet pumps because they are durable as hell, handle air as good or better than any pump on the market, and are completely rebuildable. The only flaws in their design are the cheap steel threaded plugs they use on their pump housing. It isn't a bad idea to change them to brass or stainless when installing the pump but they will probably last 10+ years before they rot away and leak so you can change them later just as easily.

Cary a 10 second dry run in a deep well with a check valve directly at the top of the pump can absolutely air lock the pump. That said I did not know the Cycle Sensor had an adjustable feature for that 10 second dry run shut off time. If that is programmable down to like 1.5 seconds or so I will have to purchase one of them and try it out. I remember reading about the Cycle Sensor when I first saw them and the only thing that prevented me from trying a few was the stated 10 second dry run time. Is that dry run adjustment in the instructions somewhere?

 

[Valveman]

That said I did not know the Cycle Sensor had an adjustable feature for that 10 second dry run shut off time.

The 10 seconds is not adjustable, but never had a problem air locking any worse than when it shuts off quicker. Have used all the other brands in the past myself. What is very sensitive and adjustable is the under-load current adjustment. You can actually set it to a pumping depth. Shut the pump off at the amps present just before it pumps dry, and you certainly cannot air lock.

 

[shane21]

Okay that would be a great benefit for wells we encounter that produce gas, especially as the water level in the well drops and the hydrostatic pressure on the formation is reduced allowing that gas to enter the well even faster - kind of like a work around to the problem that 10 second dry run time can cause. I will take another look at the Cycle Sensor and see how that adjustment works. Thanks,

 

[Valveman]

Okay that would be a great benefit for wells we encounter that produce gas, especially as the water level in the well drops and the hydrostatic pressure on the formation is reduced allowing that gas to enter the well even faster - kind of like a work around to the problem that 10 second dry run time can cause. I will take another look at the Cycle Sensor and see how that adjustment works. Thanks,

And "wells that produce gas", I can see why you are concerned about air locking. With a high static you can see the amps pulling down on the Cycle Sensor. I'll bet it will work for you.

 

[shane21]

Yeah air locking issues in a deep well that doesn't produce gas can be a problem with a 10 second dry run time, but air locking issues in wells that produce gas is next level pain in the butt. I will be sure to take a look at the Cycle Sensor for this application.

 

[Cabin Guy]

Thank you all. On the Coyote - it is part of my current system (40 gallon air over water pressure valve pressurized by the well pump). I am moving to a reservoir system to have more reserve capacity as we have a very low-yield well. Based on what I read above, I can still use the Coyote then to guard against dry running by having it in series with the line to the well pump - and then have the CSV downstream of my booster/jet pump to pressurize the house line - and not having the interaction that Cary pointed out (that the coyote cannot distinguish between the two low volt states). I think I have it right - but point it out if not.

 

[Cabin Guy]

On the pump, the Goulds and others seem to have an integrated pressure sensor. I assume that is just for pump protection? - or is that somehow redundant with the pressure sensor that would be part of the kickstart package?

 

[Reach4]

On the pump, the Goulds and others seem to have an integrated pressure sensor. I assume that is just for pump protection? - or is that somehow redundant with the pressure sensor that would be part of the kickstart package?

redundant. Those pump are commonly available without pressure switches.

 

[Valveman]

On the pump, the Goulds and others seem to have an integrated pressure sensor. I assume that is just for pump protection? - or is that somehow redundant with the pressure sensor that would be part of the kickstart package?

You could use the switch that comes on the pump, but you have to extend the sensing line to the CSV or past. It is usually easier to install a regular pressure switch on th eCSV1A or tank, and just wire around the existing switch. Wiring diagram for the Pside-Kick shows how to do that easily.

 

[Cabin Guy]

Thanks again. I just ordered my tank and my PK1A. Thank you for all the help!