Standard for Uncoupling Membranes

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JohnfrWhipple

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Standard for UNCOUPLING
As request---what would you guys like to see in a Standard for Uncoupling membranes?
some sort of performance levels..

At what point does it uncouple?
What does that mean?

I know it says limit the transfer of stess but what does that mean to you??

Should it come loose from the floor??

COMENTS!!
__________________
Eric - Noble Company Guy Posted - June 5, 2010


I pulled this quote of the John Bridge Tile Forum. I have not yet read the full discussion but was wandering. Since the post was in June 2010 - I'm thinking the Standards have been outlined.

Is this correct?

Or is the truth of the matter that the product has been sold for years and there is not any Industry guidelines that measure uncoupling. Isn't uncoupling kind of like breaking free or tearing away? Why would you want that?

In Kerdi and Ditra training years ago I was taught that the uncoupling was to stop the floor from popping if the floor gets pushed on from the sides. They showed us in class a metal ruler and then moved it 1/16". The ruler popped way up in the middle.

Can they (TCNA TEST COMMITTEE) not just tile a floor and then add pressure from the sides? How hard is it to come up with a test after four years? Weird.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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A year later a Custom Building Tech on the same committee as Eric from Noble Company wrote this:

I am on the same TCNA comittee as Eric to define uncoupling membrane.

The big questions is "what seperate an uncoupling membrane from other crack isolation membranes". Elastomeric membranes will isolate movement between the tile and the substrate, the same as uncoupling; so how are they different.

The bond to a membrane only needs to be 50 psi, whereas it should be at least 200 psi to the tile. So in effect any stress will cause a failure at the weakest point; the membrane.

There are details in the TCNA Handbook where a layer of plywood is replaced with the uncoupling membrane; perhaps this is the defining difference. Then it acts more like a backerboard.

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Custom Building Products - Technical


I wonder why he wants 200PSI bond strength to tile but membranes are allowed to fail at 50 PSI?
 

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The most useful info so far has come from Dave Gobis. He wrote this:

OK, you poked me. Before anyone talks about greasing the wheels I suggest you show up at a meeting and then explain to me just how that works with 75 to 100 people in a room all looking out for their own interests. CX was at a meeting recently and I think he would agree it is an impossibility. I have been on the committee as long as the uncoupling definition has been around and it has changed several times. Members of the committee opposed the original definition which ironically they voted for and those other than the manufactures of the product drafted it's current definition.

Uncoupling Membrane
A plastic membrane system geometrically
configured to provide air space
between the tile and the substrate to
allow independent movement between
the two and limit the transfer of
stresses.

At the last meeting they added does not meet any standard.

Dictionary

un·cou·ple (n-kpl)
v. un·cou·plpledd, un·cou·plpling, un·cou·ples
v.tr.
1. To disconnect:

Unlike flat sheets or liquids where the tile is bonded on both sides to a soild mass in bonding to uncoupling membranes only one side is bonded and the other is mechanically locked in place. This allows the tile installation to act like a train for lack of a better analogy. It is coupled together, but not bonded together. In theroy, this allows the installation to be more resistant to movement. I think one of the other great advantages is vapor diffusion which is sorely needed and greatly under utilized, that is one of the greatest advantages of the product.

Lets not forget while Schluter seems to do the leg work for all the uncoupling manufactures there are others out there. I would also like to add that Schluter has never given me one thin dime and I have not spoke to anyone there at length since I left CTEF
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What I have learned over the years is that you need to be careful why people tell you stuff. What is in it for them.

I told my daughter the other day. "Sweetheart I did not eat one of your cookies" - The truth was I ate two..... lol
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Now this is really scary. Remember Dave Gobis is a tile consultant. He does court cases. Detective work for tile failures and helps specify I think. He wrote this last week.

When there was one product on the market this was no big deal. My issue is there are now many "uncoupling" membranes on the market. Some work, some don't. Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do. Then I get a call for a claim and each one has their own version of how it needs to be installed and what it should and shouldn't do. I personally have been involved in literally hundreds of claims on commercial properties, subdivisions and builder homes totaling millions of dollars. I have seen "uncoupling" membranes put a 30 year old contracting company out of business and saddle others with debt they will be paying off for years. Let's face it, when it comes to claims no installation is perfect and if you open the door you can count on a flood. The only question is how much is it going to cost. I have been asking for roughly 15 years for a standard but the committee meets infrequently and no one can agree. Meanwhile, people continue to be victimized. The latest ploy on implementing some performance value is the shear bond requirement, which is NOT a standard. That is a stop gap measure at best. This is not second hand information, I have been at the forefront of this for the entire trip. Confidentiality, required for standards development prevents me from discussing it in greater depth so don't ask. By the way, my current unresolved "uncoupling" claims are between 3 and 5 Million dollars. Is it a product issue? Depends on who you ask. My adversary says they don't need to be bonded and therefore no harm no foul. Meanwhile one project has a crew repairing tile every few weeks the last year and a half. Should be no surprise the owner who was sold on the benefits of the product is footing the bill for all the ongoing repairs. A costly legal battle will determine who ultimately pays but there will be no interest or fees awarded. Seem fair to you?
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So what uncoupling membranes don't work? Reading between the lines I would avoid any that require no bonding at all. Not sure where I say this but I'm pretty sure a year or two back one uncoupling membrane allowed staples or nails to install it.

What a shit show.

Later the same week Dave posted this.

Everything relative to "uncoupling" in the handbook was based on Ditra which was the only player at the time. The same thing happened with cement board. Maybe 10 years after Wonderboard went in the handbook (which was on the market 10 years prior, 10+10=20) they had competitors and a standard. That has not been the case with the Uncoupling product. Personally I find some irony in the fact the harshest critics at that time now also make a similar product.

My feelings on the subject were summed up in my previous post. I am not a fan of tile installers being offered as sacrificial lambs to suit the whims of a manufacturer. However, I am also not opposed to skewering them when deserving, like the one I just looked at where the cups were nearly full of sawdust. Most of the similar products out there work well, a few do not. With no standard who is to say that a pig is not a beautiful woman or handsome man?

There was never any "test" for the green concrete recommendation. I am the one that made the motion. It was based on a long history of success in both the US and Europe and the studies done by the CTL Group (Portland Cement Institute) and presented at the meeting, twice. If failed the first time with a request for more data, and they provided more data. I have found the vapor equalization of some membranes very useful in some applications.
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There is a research term of the week. What is Vapour Equalization?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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As someone in the business and in the habit of researching things in depth I know all the players above. I have spoken to a few of them and read posts from others for years. What I take away from this is some hidden info.

I need to learn more about Vapour Equalization, since the phrase sounds so technical. When you install Ditra you will later see trapped moisture through the membrane. I have see the same effect with Strata Mat. But what about Spider Web? That's solid. My gut is telling me that this new term, new to me is a kick to the nuts to products that are one solid piece. Possibly a kick to the nuts to Noble Company's NobleSeal TS and CIS.

I know Noble Company is always selling in their demo's that the membranes going down to waterproof should also be crack isolation membranes. I know Ditra is not tested as one so this is a soft jab to them. I wonder if vapour equalization is the next sales angle in the horizon. I have not seen the phrase pop up before today on my radar.

Interesting.

But to sum up. Four years later and still no standard. I would bet that in four more there will still be no standard. I was once told a story of how the perm rating numbers came to be for steam shower membranes. The discussion on what number to use and how in the end one was chossen. I laugh now - having been told this story to see the number changed. I'm a little cynical when it comes to these tests, these codes since the company's that make the products are also the same people that set the rules and define the tests.

What a great system that is. Make the product. Set the rules. Awesome.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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And there it is. The reason of the huge spike in debate over the standards for uncoupling membranes.... Have a look at this. Posted by CX. Now CX is really no one in the industry other than the key promoter and I think new owner of the John Bridge tile forum. He wrote this;

Nothing at all sudden about it, Roberto. If you'll look at the date of this thread you'll see it started more than four years ago and the "push" in the technical side of the industry had begun well before that.

Some of the more recent impetus, as I understand it, is that there have been significant failures using materials calling themselves uncoupling membranes and the installer being burned because he had no standard upon which to rely to defend his installation.

From my perspective it's just a matter of very poor procedure to have a method published in our industry Handbook with any kind of standard for the material used in the method. I'd prefer to see the method removed from publication until a standard can be developed.

__________________
CX


Private Info. "recent impetus". So someone has a huge failure and the manufactures of these materials must be rubbing their hands in delight or freaking out.

The standards CX refers do are allowed to be trumped by the maker of the product. The TCNA and TTMAC say so. So if a manufacture tells you it's ok to not thin-set their product down what is the issue? I believe this is not a small failure but a rather large failure.

I would assume the failure is in a hotel.

I would assume that the builder had specifications (because of risk assessments) that TCNA guidelines be followed.

I would assume the tile guy used a cheaper product.

I would bet he did so to speed up and save money.

Then - bang. Kick to the nuts. Who is going to pay.....

You would think any of these men might drop a name. tell us what product has failed. But nope... Buyer beware.

Kind of gives you a nasty feeling about risk management in whole.
 

ShowerDude

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thats a lot to take in....

makes me wanna tile my next floor over double plywood ONLY.

but then im being cheap And skimping on my clients floor?????

this all relates to the bogus warranty and fear tactics to use only 1 product source.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, this is copyrighted information, and thus illegal to copy and paste. All posts on (most) forums, are copyrighted by their owners, and cannot be copied without permission, and I'm SURE they did not give any to John Whipple!

As to vapor equalization...think saturated...once you reach a certain level of vapor pressure in a gas, it stabilizes and no more can be absorbed by that volume of gas. A classic example of water is the humidity level...once it reaches 100%, the air won't hold any more water vapor, and some of it condenses...this might condense into fog (small liquid droplets), rain, sleet, or snow, but the vapor (humidity when talking about water) cannot exceed 100% where the absolute quantity varies based on the temperature. This is a basic physics that is taught in high school. The amount of any gas that can be in the mix depends on several things: pressure, temperature, and the type. Since it is a gas, if the temperature drops below the dew point of water, it will condense, but when it warms up again, it will return to vapor. This can help stabilize the moisture content. On those uncoupling membranes that have interconnected air spaces, if the installation incorporates an exit path at the edges, it can allow that moisture to escape as it becomes effectively a larger volume of air to the outside. Regardless, though, it tends to stabilize the surface and the moisture content.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Erik. Read between the lines man. Somewhere an uncoupling membrane has failed and a tile man has gone broke (installer error no doubt). This is not a failed shower. This has got to be a large commercial job. If the product failed why did the make not fix the problem? Why is the tile man on the hook for the repair?

I saw somewhere online a long time back an tile prep mat that require no thin-set. I laughed when I saw it. Kind of like peel n stick backsplash prep.

I could not find the images online where I say them.

So I'm not looking right or they are gone.

The other big statement is that anyone can do anything they want as long as the Manfacture says it's OK. So in order to specify a job better these days my clients need to edit some on my favourite verbiage.

I first recommend this:

"All work to conform the latest edition of the TCNA Specfication guidelines".

Then I edited it later to this. Because adding slope is listed as optional in most specs.

"All work to conform to the latest edition of the TCNA Specification guidelines including waterproofing and pre-slope recommendations"

Now we should write. "Follow one company's specification and check that it meets one specification in the TCNA".

That should do it.

Unless you have a window in your tub. A window in your shower. You want a LED shower niche. You want a niche between two walls. ,...... and on and on and on......
 

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I read the whole thing . and re read!


I believe the membrane has a purpose, I think it offers more flex in seasonal movement. but you have a point .......no proof in standards ...

If one does not FIRST look at your floors joist sytem or slab condition and have a solid understanding of deflection cold joints expansion jounts etc. and proper subfloor prep NO membrane will help you.

and since most installers dont, and certainly the average diy homeowner doesnt, there will always be failing membranes ..... and thus a reason for MFG to offer sytstems with misleading wrrty's. and employ scare tactics for sales purpose


one reason to hire a pro for your floor installation.

A true tile pro will know when a given substrate is ready for the various class rating of the tile to be installed res1, C2, etc.
they should verify the span and deflection rating. Also will know how to bridge ezpansion joints , and more to prep a
slab for tile...


this is science and math proven to work time and again for me ......the membrane optional as the TCNA states when dealing with 2 layer exp 1 ply.


it starts with the substrate and tile choice. even then it must be installed properly....

John its likely theres a lot of money being made and maybe information witheld, all mfg want you to think you need the membrane......


oh man! now im ranting again
WTF do I lnow anyways!!
 
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Jadnashua

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All of the membrane manufacturers that I've had anything to do with state that the floor must be within industry standards prior to your installation of the membrane regarding the joists. They often then discuss the subflooring requirements. The thickness and amount of layers required depends on the application and the membrane in question, but all must have at least the minimum.
 

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Who knows the brand name of the failed uncoupling membrane? I'm going to search one more time today.

Loving the new speakers Santa brought for the kitchen! Taylor Swift never sounded so good!
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Installation Standards for Various UnCoupling Membranes.

So the only two I see that fit the bill are the Peel-N-Stick options from Custom. I wonder if the failed job is a Easymat one.... Any idea Robert?

I can not find a single uncoupling membrane that does not require it to be bonded. Where the hell did I see this? Any ideas..... Gobis mentions this in his post above. It has to be out there. I'll keep checking.
 
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John , I think one of the big point -- argument -- were the problem is -- prompted the need for a ANSI standard for UCM -- , is the design of the new UCM Ditra Heat . If the biggest advantage was the dovetail lock in the successful Ditra and XL version , the lock is almost not existent in the DH . Combined with the temperatures fluctuations stressing the assembly , what standards or tests can be objectively applied to it ?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I can see why Eric at Noble Started the discussion. The term "Uncoupled" Implys that the membrane unbonds from the surface. This can not be good. But sales are sales and sales tactics are part of the business.

What I what to know is this. There is not one reported failure of an uncoupling membrane yet Dave Gobis references 100's of cases. if the new players just came out then he must be talking about a few dozen failed Ditra jobs. That is the first "between the lines fact" I draw from his posts.

The most alarming one is the one that says some require no bonding. This is may or may not be an urban legend.

Do you know of any membrane that makes this claim?

Is he referring to peel-n-stick. Nailed down cement board? What?

So easy to place fear in thousands when you don't claim your source of info. And really why would he? He get paid to investigate failures. Who do you think he is helping? The builder? The Manufacture? The end user? The tile guy? Who?

Of the 100's of failures how many do you think he has seen under 200 square feet? I bet not many, if any.

These detectives working on massive jobs where time is money and if Shit goes South - someone is going to pay.

I have installed Ditra for years. Recently Strata Mat. Loads of NobleSeal TS, CIS NobleDeck. In all these years I have one tile call back from failure. That job did have Ditra but it was stuck like a mother. I suspect the failure steamed from lack of movement joints and too tight of a grout spacing. Expansion another thing and issue.

I would never dream of installing a tile prep system without bonding it. Unless I was using a slip joint. So what dumb ass company released it? And if so - why is there no info about it? If it is an Urban Legend, why talk about it?

I sent out Christmas wishes to Noble Company and Laticrete. I asked for help finding this product Dave mentions. I would love it if anyone with any info shares it.

Until installers share this info. We post it. Discuss it. Share it - it's all just theory and salesmanship online.

The other day I was getting some stocking stuffers at Rona. Like I always do I checked product stock in the tile isle. What are they selling. Is it fresh or old? The thin-set was super fresh. Made last month. Yet the admix for the thin-set was made in 2013. Fully expired.

Then I checked the grout. Some bags are being sold almost two years old. Scary that this is fresh stock. recently put away.

You need to self educated. Everybody. It is not wrong to sell you two year old grout. Not wrong to use it. Just if it fails you will be asked where you bought it. What the date code was. And then, you used an expired product.

Two Words.

Installer Error.....
 

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There is more than enough lock on the towers of Ditra Heat to hold the thinset in place and thus the tile...that is not the question. Thinset is pretty rigid, and it doesn't take much when coupled (no pun intended) to the relatively rigid edge of the mat that has the lip on it; the rest of the structure of the mat is plenty flexible horizontally. The lip that locks the heating wire in place does that.

Uncoupling just means that there is not a direct bond between two rigid surfaces...IOW, the membrane can flex. Same idea of a rigid axle on a cart verses one with springs and shocks on another...while connected together, the body can move somewhat independently of the wheels...the substrate can move independently of the tile/thinset layer. It doesn't mean that they are not connected together, it's just that they can move (within limits, and that is probably the question) independently. One that does say it 'breaks' or shears, is SpiderWeb, where they state in their documentation that (some) of the anchoring fibers can break, thus giving it some independent movement. How much of a bond it will retain after repeated expansion/shrinkage cycles, would have to be tested to verify it was a viable product.
 

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John , uncoupling membranes do rely on -- no bonding -- in between the tile and the surface of the membrane . All of them are bonded to the substrate .

I do not know where the data on '' fails '' comes from , but it is important to know how to protect the installation from it . Relying on experience and a conservator approach on choosing installation products is a good idea .
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Roberto - re read the posts I quoted from Dave Gobis. He refers to uncoupling membranes that do not require they be bonded to the the substrate.

This is what I'm looking for.

Your comment is a little confusing for me.

How are Spider Web and Strata mat similar in design for UnCoupling?

How do Strata mat and Ditra compare?

Blanke and Dural CI?

Uncoupling is a sales tool. Not science. Not trade marked or patented.

Just make something. Pay to have it tested. And your good to go.

The secret lies in understanding that only I think Ditra right now has a proper spec in the TCNA.

As for use installers we need only worry about specifications quoted from "Others". Since most times this never happens we can pick what ever we like. Unless your on a commercial job where this verbiage is added to protect the owner of the build.

Then if you do not follow a spec - your %^(&ed.

The more I understand all the rules the more I think the rules are madde to protect the makers of these products and not the end user. Why would a TCNA spec say in it that you can bend the rules of the maker says it's OK? Why is OK to set thin-set 1/2" thick when the maker of the thin-set says no?

Double standards. Fague details? Missing details.

If you read the TTMAC and TCNA guides. There are no specifications for undermount tub installs or showers with windows?

Why? Are you not allowed to have this?

Why is there no guide for niches? No rules?

I think Eric and the boys at Noble are sick of selling against a concept. Air. They want something to measure - to check themselves. But years later no info has come to light.

Sales.

Sales

and more sales.

Yet no facts. No specifications. No discussions and no more info for anyone to draw upon.

CX wrote this

"Some of the more recent impetus, as I understand it, is that there have been significant failures using materials calling themselves uncoupling membranes and the installer being burned because he had no standard upon which to rely to defend his installation."
  • Significant Failures
  • Installer being burned
  • No Standard upon which to defend his installation
Why not flat out ask him Roberto? You write there as well as here. Why shield the info from public view unless to shield yourself from spreading gossip. If you are going to refer to such huge potential disaster you should call the Spade a Spade.

On a separate note the use of an Uncoupling Adhesive like Ardex AF207 I see is not included in the Schluter Specifications. I do no see it listed in the TTMAC or TCNA spec book. So is it OK to use? A Schluter Sales rep told me it has been used for years in the UK with no failures reported.

There are no reported failures anywhere in the world top my knowledge yet we know they happen. So if the new guy takes for argument an Ardex seminar and gets shown AF207. Then takes job where he is required to follow certain TCNA or TTMAC specifications and Shit goes South. Who is wrong? If the product is not listed by name or covered by ASTM test methods - then how do we know if he followed the rules? Who pays for a failure? Who pays for the detective work? Lets say it's 60,000 square feet at the Ritz in Las Vegas or 60 square feet on Ritz Lane in Vancouver.

The main thing the discussion is missing is this fact. When a job has specifications you need to dig deeper and make sure that all spec's are met. I tested AF 207 myself. Love Ardex the company. Hate this product. When a job does go South (it could happen). Is Schluter going to step up and say "It's OK - we recommend it. If they did would it not be listed in the TCNA and TTMAC spec guide and their install notes".

How many commercial jobs get built you think without specific reference to the TCNA or TTMAC guidelines? I would be less than 1%.

When I listen to drug ads on the radio it reminds me of the tile business.

"Check with your doctor"
"May cause blindness"
"Make sure this is right for you"
"Stop if you get a rash"

on and on.

Test is a small area..........

When I find the uncoupling membrane that requires no bonding. You can bet your ass I'll share it here. By name and with a picture if I find it.

As yet I can find not one reference to an uncoupling membrane that does not require it to be bonded to the subfloor by thin-set.
 
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