Splitting a basement bathroom into two. Part 1) plumbing the second toilet

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bluinc

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Hi all,

I am going to split a ~7x11 basement bathroom into a full bath (bathtub, toilet and sink) and half bath (toilet and sink). The House was built in 1977 and is in Anne Arrundel County in Maryland.

Regarding just the drainage portion, how do I relocate the original toilet and add a second toilet?

Just using common sense but not knowing jack about plumbing (but I have a guy who is helping that knows one notch above jack), I would think it would go down something like this:

1) Shut off the water to the toilet, remove the existing toilet, flooring and other obstructions
2) Rent a concrete saw and cut about 6" (?) wide trench from the existing pipe to where we want the toilets to be. Sledgehammer and remove the concrete. Dig down and remove enough of the dirt to make room for the new soil pipes.
3) Using a ??? (cutting torch? dremel tool and diamond wheel?), cut away the existing iron soil pipe down the distance equal to the length of an ell (90 degree) fitting plus a tee fitting.
4) attach this ell fitting to the existing soil drain pipe (how do you do this? some sort of clamp or sleeve? epoxy? Welding?)
5) from the ell run straight pipe to where the new toilet is going. under that attach a tee fitting to connect to the bathroom toilet. Run more straight pipe to the powder room toilet, the attach a final ell fitting so that the opening points straight up. I would guess there is some sort of flange that goes at the end here.
6) Put the soil back. Backfill the trench with concrete. What kind do I use?
7) When the concrete is set, replace the flooring
8) Drop in the new wax rings
9) Attach the old toilets and the new, run cold water lines to the new toilets and connect.

Is that it? am I missing anything?

Thanks y'all!
 
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Jc60618

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If the undergroung piping is cast iron or iron you can cut it with a grinder. Depending on your local code you can run the new line in PVC. The method of attaching the new piping to the existing is with a fernco coupling. Again depending on your local code you might need a vent for the toilet. I like to use 3/4 stone as a bed for the piping then backfill with whatever I took out. As far as concrete I like to use QUIKRETE® 5000 Concrete Mix.
Can you attach a drawing of what your trying to do.
 

Jimbo

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Before any one else has a chance, I will make the snide remark that what you are missing is a plumber!

You have the idea, but unless I missed it, you don't know for sure where the waste pipe runs under the slab, and how the VENT is tied in. These things will obviously have to be dealt with when you open up the slab. No matter how close or how far away the new toilet will be, you have to have 1/4" per foot slop on the lateral pipe.

Joining pipes....depends on what is down there. Plastic - solvent glue. Welding? no. epoxy? no. Banded rubber couplings of the proper size...probably.

Right now there may be more questions than answers. If you are ready to commit, and do it on your own, open the slab and send pictures
 

bluinc

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Yes, it is cast iron. I'd like to keep it iron if possible just to be consistent and not risk a code violation. If I do use iron, I can still use the fernco coupling?

So, you can bury fernco couplings with quikrete 5000?

To help you all visualize what I am thinking, here are some sketches I did:
here is how my bathroom currently is configured, but imagine ugly 70s interiors


This is what I want to do with it after reversing the closets so that the back area is 7 feet wide vice the 5 it is now.

The circle between the clawfoot tub and toilet denotes where the toilet and soil pipe are now. All the area in BLUE is the below slab plumbing I am proposing. So, to make this happen, I cut down the existing, put in an ell (90 deg) using a fernco coupler, which connects to a Tee (providing 1/4" per foot slope along the way) up to the 1st toilet (which I decided to move to be against the wall and turned 90 degrees from its current orientation - reasons being, seems creepy to walk in and the first thing you see is a toilet, not to mention it would be too close to the new clawfoot tub if I left it there), then from the tee it joins to an ell up to the other toilet in the powder room.

No idea where the vent is, but most of all my walls are torn down so I can see most of the existing plumbing. What am I looking for?
 
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Jc60618

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You can still get away with using fernco couplings. What I do is bury the piping with soil and then finish the last five inches or so with concrete. What you are proposing shows no vent for the two water closets. How are the other fixtures connected to the underground? What is that 90 elbow going to be connected to? Which direction does the underground run? How many inches do you have from top of slab to top of pipe?
 
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Terry

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The drain for the toilets is incorrect.
In several ways.
What state are you plumbing for?

You need 21" in front of the toilet bowl.

12.8.4 Water Closets and Other Siphonic Fixtures
For water closets and other fixtures that operate by Siphonic action, the distance between the outlet of the fixture and it's vent connection shall not exceed 3 feet vertically and 9 feet horizontally.

http://www.phccweb.org/files/Depts/Technical/2006NSPCNonIllustratedWeb.pdf
 
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bluinc

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You can still get away with using fernco couplings. What I do is bury the piping with soil and then finish the last five inches or so with concrete. What you are proposing shows no vent for the two water closets. How are the other fixtures connected to the underground? What is that 90 elbow going to be connected to? Which direction does the underground run? How many inches do you have from top of slab to top of pipe?

ok, got the part about burying the clamps first. Makes sense. thak you. Looking into how the other fixtures are connected to the underground. the 90 goes down deep then turns "north" (180 from the door entrance to the main bathroom) 90 to go to the septic tank I assume since there is no plumbing between it and the septic. I will find out the distance from the top of the slab to the top of the pipe.
 
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bluinc

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House is in Maryland.

Can you be more specific about the 21" bit, I dont understand...and for which toilet bowl? there will be two.
 
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Jc60618

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There are fixture clearances you must adhere to, for that you must check with your local building department. For example in Chicago a toilet shall not be set closer than 15" from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction or 30" center to center between two adjacent fixtures. There shall be 21" clearance in front of the water closet to any wall, fixture or door. Again clearances vary from place to place so check your local code before proceeding.
 
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Basement_Lurker

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This project is definitely above your skill level. You need to have a plumber install this properly for you. Judging by what you've said so far, you also need the plumber to rework your layouts and rough-ins. It's a lot cheaper to have this done properly in the first place than to rip it all up again when you start having problems.
 

hj

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You were going good until you hit step 2. Everything from that point on is incorrect for your installation, starting with a 6" trench is not wide enough, and you cannot use Ferncos inside the house. And we do not care when the house was built or which county it is in. "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
 

bluinc

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"Everything from that point on is incorrect for your installation" So what is the correct way then. I am coming here 1) admitting I dont know plumbing, so we kinda already covered the "im wrong" part by self admission (2) i'm here looking for answers.

"Starting with a 6" trench is not wide enough" So if its not 6", then how wide? I put a (?) by that number for this very reason, hoping someone would see that this was just a guess and then take the time to correct me where i am off, maybe skipping the belittling part.

"You cannot use Ferncos inside the house" OK - well, I had never even hear of these until jc60618 told me in this post I could use them. So if I cant use these, great, thanks, so what then do I use (which was one of my original questions).

"we do not care...which county it is in" Are not codes different from county to county? So why would telling the forum my county not be relevant? If you dont know the codes for my state or county then just say so. I said it because I was hoping maybe someone who frequents this site knows the codes for my county.

"we do not care...when the house was built" Have codes not changed over the years? I would think one would want to know what era a house was built to better zero in on what I am likely to find here when it comes to materials and methods used.

I have one request - can someone here please walk me through the process rather than just telling me "im wrong" and to "hire a plumber."

Thank you!
 

bluinc

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There are fixture clearances you must adhere to, for that you must check with your local building department. For example in Chicago a toilet shall not be set closer than 15" from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction or 30" center to center between two adjacent fixtures. There shall be 21" clearance in front of the water closet to any wall, fixture or door. Again clearances vary from place to place so check your local code before proceeding.

Ok, thank you. I get that my clearances are jacked up - are clearances primarily a "comfort" thing, i.e. to prevent people from cramming too much into one sock but really for aesthetics and comfort, or do clearances also affect how a fixture or drain WORKS (i.e. clogs, backflow, etc).

Clearances aside, can someone at least start by telling me if I can even attach two toilets in serial like I have pictured here, or do they each have to have their own separate line to the main line...or some other thing?

I guess a simpler way to ask my original question is this:

I want to split a basement bathroom into two separate bathrooms. How would a real plumber do it. what are the steps. Thank you all!
 
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Jc60618

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Ok, thank you. My drawing shows the clearances are jacked up. Clearances aside, can someone at least tell me if I can attach two toilets remotely in the fashion that I have shown here (in serial to the line going to the septic) or do they each have to have their own separate line to the stack or some other thing?

I guess a simpler way to ask my question is: I want to split a basement bathroom into two separate bathrooms. Besides turning over my kids tuition to a local plumber...how do I do it.

The best way to do this is to change the layout. It is much easier and practical to do a back to back installation. However this might require the rooms to be bigger in order to allow for proper fixture clearance. A few months ago I did an underground for a back to back public washroom below is how I did it and it passed inspection. All underground done in cast iron with push gaskets and vents done in copper. Keep in mind that codes differ from place to place as well as fitting usage. Hope it helps. By the way I have never heard of fernco/ no hub couplings not being allowed inside or on an underground. Currently am currently working on the suspended cast iron on a hospital all connected with fernco/ no hub bands. Also broken undergrounds mains are often fixed with fernco/ no hub couplings.
 

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Jimbo

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The fly in your ointment....you don't show where the toilet vent connection is now, or how you will deal with that as you tie in the new toilet.
 

Jc60618

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Below is how I would do it with the assumption that I had access to the back. Of course you have to establish the layout with dimensions to see if the fittings are going to work.
 

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hj

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Do you have any concept of how difficult it would be for us to try to describe the correct way, and hope you would be able to translate the description into a workable installation? It is hard enough to give a DIYer a precise drawing and have him do it. If we were there we could say, "do this, and then do that", because we would have access to, and could see, the entire area. Regardless of what the codes were when the house was built, your only concern is what they are now, because that is what you have to abide by. There are two major codes, and I use the term loosely for one of them, and they are seldom specific to any particular county. The more irrelevent information you include, the longer and more tedious the posting becomes.
 
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