Special Valve - Does it exist?

[Ryanmo]

I'm looking for a valve that I would describe as a "conditional valve." My application --- I have water going to 2 sources from a tee. I need source A to get preference over source B. So, source B will only get water when source A is not demanding any. Source A is going directly into a house, whereas source B is going into a holding tank that is not pressed for instant supply. It can be replenished slowly. I'm trying to avoid another holding tank at the source, and think this could solve my issue. The water source has a variable supply, which is my concern for both A & B using simultaneously. Worst case I just have to add a little buffer storage, but wanted to see if anything like that existed.

 

[Fitter30]

B is it a bladder tank or does the water get pumped out of it by its own tank?
B have a level control or how is full tank controlled?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Ryanmo]

B is it a bladder tank or does the water get pumped out of it by its own tank?
B have a level control or how is full tank controlled?

B will be float valve controlled into a regular tank with a submersible pump feeding a pressure tank.

 

[bob horowski]

If I understand your problem correctly, you want one water system to have priority over another with one source feeding both. I experienced a similiar issue with my deep water well feeding both my house water and irrigation system with a tee at the top of the well. My house water used an above ground shallow well pump as my well was not that deep to require a submersible pump and an irrigation pump is used for the sprinkling system, both being fed from the same well pipe teed off at the top of the well. Check valves on both ends of the tee were not sufficient to keep the pumps from fighting each other when at times my house water pump would come on while the irrigation pump was running. It took a specific relay controller ,which I can't recall anymore what the specific model or manufacturer it but gave one pump priority over the other. So, if my irrigation system was in operation and my house water pump came on due to pressure drop the relay would stop the irrigation pumps operation until the house water pressure tank was satisfied then allow the irrigation pump to go back on and continue till the irrigation controller shut it off. This is how I solved my issue which I think is similiar but may not be the same.

 

[Valveman]

You can fill multiple cisterns from a single well or source. Float valves at each cistern is all you need. However, modulating float valves vary the flow rate according to the height of the float. This can cause the pump to cycle on and off a lot as the cistern is being topped off. Cycling is even worse when the well pump is large enough for multiple cisterns, and only one cistern is filling at the time. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve before the pressure tank will solve this problem, and allows the use of a much smaller pressure tank. Using non-modulating float valves or electric solenoid "sprinkler" valves with a float switch are best. as they are either open to a set point or fully closed.

 

[Fitter30]

With the drawing above use one size smaller solenoid valve with a with room to add a globe valve fed in the bottom out the top to adjust flow if needed when house and tank are calling. Float switches mounted on a pvc. Would add a backflow as to not have irrigation feed back if valves are open to house between the two feeds. Might add a float switch for out of water tank safety.
https://www.tank-depot.com/productd...=pla&cq_plac=&cq_net=g&cq_pos=&cq_plt=gpition}&cq_plt=gp&campaignid=17864099643&keyword=117598&gclid=CjwKCAjw586hBhBrEiwAQYEnHaXXrojC4bk_74-oIsby6gneOUHyzuE4wUPXxCO1y7Uoja4Ok0PdlhoCntcQAvD_BwE

 

[Valveman]

Using a solenoid or "sprinkler" valve with a flow control knob will let you adjust the flow rate the same as adding an additional globe valve before the electric valve. With more than 2 storage tanks to fill you might want to use a back pressure or pressure sustain valve before each solenoid. A pressure sustain valve would automatically put less water in the storage tank if the pressure gets low because water is being used elsewhere or when filling multiple storage tanks at the same time.

Also, a Cycle Sensor on each will protect the pumps from the cistern and/or the well running dry. An out of water low float switch in the storage tank would also protect the booster pump, but there is no room in the well for a float switch and the Cycle Sensor maybe best for both applications.

 

[wwhitney]

I'm a bit confused by the terminology in the OP of "source A" and "source B". The description sounds to me like there is one intermittent source, and two uses A and B. Use A should take priority over use B, so that when A has any demand, use B is shut off. And downstream, uses A and B would never recombine, they serve separate outlets.

(If I misunderstand, and the two uses are supposed to recombine like in valveman's drawing, then my comments may not be applicable. Or maybe in valveman's diagram the two uses aren't intended to recombine in the normal case, and that valve from the tank to the house is to remain closed).

As to the original question, they do make such a mechanical valve, it can be used with residential fire sprinklers. The idea is that a combined incoming water supply (rather than a separate water meter and lateral for the fire sprinklers) goes to the valve, with residential use on one side, and the fire sprinklers on the other. If you start getting (enough?) flow on the fire sprinkler side, then the valve shuts off the residential outlet. And then if your fire code and officials are agreeable, you only have to design your combined supply for the fire sprinkler demand, rather than the fire sprinkler demand plus some simultaneous domestic demand. Here's an example:

Product Detail

www.tycobuilding.com

Now it's probably not directly applicable to your situation because (a) they are very expensive ($1,000) because of fire safety mumble mumble compliance and (b) these valves would tend to activate rarely or never, whereas you want something that could presumably activate, say, multiple times per day. So the above valve might not be able to handle that level of repeated use.

But it does show that it's mechanically possible, and I wonder if there is anything similar that is designed for your use case.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fitter30]

I'm a bit confused by the terminology in the OP of "source A" and "source B". The description sounds to me like there is one intermittent source, and two uses A and B. Use A should take priority over use B, so that when A has any demand, use B is shut off. And downstream, uses A and B would never recombine, they serve separate outlets.

(If I misunderstand, and the two uses are supposed to recombine like in valveman's drawing, then my comments may not be applicable. Or maybe in valveman's diagram the two uses aren't intended to recombine in the normal case, and that valve from the tank to the house is to remain closed).

As to the original question, they do make such a mechanical valve, it can be used with residential fire sprinklers. The idea is that a combined incoming water supply (rather than a separate water meter and lateral for the fire sprinklers) goes to the valve, with residential use on one side, and the fire sprinklers on the other. If you start getting (enough?) flow on the fire sprinkler side, then the valve shuts off the residential outlet. And then if your fire code and officials are agreeable, you only have to design your combined supply for the fire sprinkler demand, rather than the fire sprinkler demand plus some simultaneous domestic demand. Here's an example:

Product Detail

www.tycobuilding.com

Now it's probably not directly applicable to your situation because (a) they are very expensive ($1,000) because of fire safety mumble mumble compliance and (b) these valves would tend to activate rarely or never, whereas you want something that could presumably activate, say, multiple times per day. So the above valve might not be able to handle that level of repeated use.

But it does show that it's mechanically possible, and I wonder if there is anything similar that is designed for your use case.

Cheers, Wayne

A &B are in post 1
A domestic water
B holding tank irrigation

 

[wwhitney]

A &B are in post 1
A domestic water
B holding tank irrigation

The OP doesn't specify the use for the holding tank B. If it's only for irrigation, and A is just the house, that's simple enough.

But if there's a provision to use the water from tank B to supply the house when house demand overwhelms the primary supply, that would be a more complicated set up. Valveman's diagram seems to provide for that option via the two valves labeled "E" on the right side.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Ryanmo]

The OP doesn't specify the use for the holding tank B. If it's only for irrigation, and A is just the house, that's simple enough.

But if there's a provision to use the water from tank B to supply the house when house demand overwhelms the primary supply, that would be a more complicated set up. Valveman's diagram seems to provide for that option via the two valves labeled "E" on the right side.

Cheers, Wayne

You are correct, they are independent sources, and both are feeding homes. I'm putting a submersible pump in the holding tank at location B. I'm just trying to avoid needing another reservoir, since it's currently unknown if the water source will supply enough for simultaneous demand for both. Since I will have enough storage at location B for at least a day's supply, I don't care if it replenishes at 1/2 gpm over the course of the night, for example.

 

[Valveman]

1/2 a GPM is still 720 gallons everyday.

 

[wwhitney]

You are correct, they are independent sources, and both are feeding homes.

Sorry, that terminology still confuses me. Sounds to me like you have 1 source of water which comes to a tee where it is split to supply two homes. Home A is supplied directly using the pressure of the source. Home B is supplied via a submersible pump in a tank at atmospheric pressure, and the tank is refilled by the source.

Is that correct?

If so, and your concern is that if the tank refills too quickly you won't have enough pressure/flow for Home A, you could just install a flow restrictor on the supply to the tank, as previously suggested. That way the tank would never refill faster than, say, 1/2 gpm. That would work fine as long as the tank is sized large enough and the average usage of Home B is under 720 gallons/day.

But if you need the tank to refill faster whenever Home A is not using water, then the theoretical valve you suggest in the OP, if it exists, would be one way to do that.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Ryanmo]

Sorry, that terminology still confuses me. Sounds to me like you have 1 source of water which comes to a tee where it is split to supply two homes. Home A is supplied directly using the pressure of the source. Home B is supplied via a submersible pump in a tank at atmospheric pressure, and the tank is refilled by the source.

Is that correct?

If so, and your concern is that if the tank refills too quickly you won't have enough pressure/flow for Home A, you could just install a flow restrictor on the supply to the tank, as previously suggested. That way the tank would never refill faster than, say, 1/2 gpm. That would work fine as long as the tank is sized large enough and the average usage of Home B is under 720 gallons/day.

But if you need the tank to refill faster whenever Home A is not using water, then the theoretical valve you suggest in the OP, if it exists, would be one way to do that.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I think we're on the same page. Ultimately there's one source--->Jet Pump---->, tees to A(house) & B (tank--sub--house#2). A flow restrictor could be the ticket.

 

[Valveman]

Using a pressure sustain or back pressure valve you can restrict flow to the storage tank when the house is using water. It is pressure operated and holds back a set amount of pressure. With the supply pump working on a 40/60 pressure switch, the sustain valve could be set to hold 40 PSI to the storage tank. When the house uses water and the pressure drops to 40 PSI , the pressure sustain valve would stop filling the storage tank. But when the house is not using any water, the storage tank would fill at the max rate of the pump. Also, if the house is only using some water, the excess the pump can produce is still filling the storage tank. So, it does either or both at the same time when/if needed.

 

[Fitter30]

With a timer set to energized the solenoid circuit B can call at night. You might not care if the tank fills at 1/2 gpm but it would cycle repeatedly which isn't good for the well pump.

 

[Valveman]

I agree the pump would cycle a lot at 1/2 GPM. But the pump can run at 1 GPM forever without hurting anything. A CSV on the pump would keep it from cycling down to as low as 1 GPM, no matter if the water was going to a shower or to the storage tank.

 

[Ryanmo]

Using a pressure sustain or back pressure valve you can restrict flow to the storage tank when the house is using water. It is pressure operated and holds back a set amount of pressure. With the supply pump working on a 40/60 pressure switch, the sustain valve could be set to hold 40 PSI to the storage tank. When the house uses water and the pressure drops to 40 PSI , the pressure sustain valve would stop filling the storage tank. But when the house is not using any water, the storage tank would fill at the max rate of the pump. Also, if the house is only using some water, the excess the pump can produce is still filling the storage tank. So, it does either or both at the same time when/if needed.

Thanks... Do you have a link or make/model of these valves?

 

[Valveman]

The one I like is a Cla-Val CRL. But they are like a thousand bucks these days. Been wanting to try a regular back pressure valve off a deep well jet pump as they should do exactly the same thing and only cost a hundred bucks or so.

AV21 - Buy Goulds Pressure Control Valve - $122.00

AV21 - Buy Goulds AV21 pressure control valve online from Locke Well & Pump Company Orlando Florida.

www.lockewell.com