SOLVED: Wiring Question

[Martina]

Hello everyone!

Need some help with a wiring project. In our living room, we have two duplex outlets along the same wall (both are single-gang boxes). The top outlets on both receptacles are controlled by a wall switch (see poorly drawn diagram ). I would like to add two (hardwired) wall sconces on that same wall (one above each outlet) that I could ultimately control by the wall switch. I would prefer that the top outlets are no longer controlled by the wall switch (same as bottom), so that only the wall sconces are linked to the wall switch. Given our current configuration, what would be the best and easiest way to accomplish this? I believe the existing wiring is 14-gauge. By adding the wall sconces, would I also need to replace the current single-gang boxes with larger capacity ones? Thanks in advance for all forthcoming replies. Martina

Attachments:
Image 1 - Diagram
Images 2 & 3 - left wall outlet
Images 4 & 5 - right wall outlet

 

[Fitter30]

Replace the two reciprocal just wire them with bottom two wires. Fish wires down to the reciprocal might need deeper boxes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[wwhitney]

Given our current configuration, what would be the best and easiest way to accomplish this? I believe the existing wiring is 14-gauge.

Identify the breaker supplying both receptacles and confirm that it is a 15A breaker; shut it off. Cut in an appropriate old work box at each sconce location, in the same stud bay as the receptacle below. If the existing receptacle boxes are new work (nail-on), destructively remove each of them without damaging the existing cables. Fish a new 14-2 cable from each sconce location down to the receptacle location below. Install old work boxes at each receptacle location, install new receptacles (without the split tabs), wiring the receptacles and lights in the obvious way. If it's not clear how to wire them, try posting a diagram for the proposed configuration like the one you already made for the existing configuration, and we can mark it up if corrections are necessary.

By adding the wall sconces, would I also need to replace the current single-gang boxes with larger capacity ones?

If the existing boxes are nailed on, you're not going to be able to fish a new cable into the box, so you'll be removing the existing boxes regardless. Your drawing suggests the middle box currently has a 14/3 cable coming in and a 14/3 cable going out. When you add a new 14/2 cable to that box to supply the sconce above, you will have 8 non-ground wires coming in, and you need to add to that 1 allowance for all the grounds and 2 allowances for the receptacle, for a total of 11 allowances. With #14 wire, each allowance is 2 cubic inches. So you will need to use an old work box that is at least 22 cubic inches.

For the box on the right in your diagram, you will have one less 14/3 cable coming into the box, so it will be 3 less allowances, or 8 total. Meaning that box only has to be at least 16 cubic inches. However, if the larger size box will fit, might as well use it there, too, as it will only make wiring up the connection easier.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Martina]

Identify the breaker supplying both receptacles and confirm that it is a 15A breaker; shut it off. Cut in an appropriate old work box at each sconce location, in the same stud bay as the receptacle below. If the existing receptacle boxes are new work (nail-on), destructively remove each of them without damaging the existing cables. Fish a new 14-2 cable from each sconce location down to the receptacle location below. Install old work boxes at each receptacle location, install new receptacles (without the split tabs), wiring the receptacles and lights in the obvious way. If it's not clear how to wire them, try posting a diagram for the proposed configuration like the one you already made for the existing configuration, and we can mark it up if corrections are necessary.


If the existing boxes are nailed on, you're not going to be able to fish a new cable into the box, so you'll be removing the existing boxes regardless. Your drawing suggests the middle box currently has a 14/3 cable coming in and a 14/3 cable going out. When you add a new 14/2 cable to that box to supply the sconce above, you will have 8 non-ground wires coming in, and you need to add to that 1 allowance for all the grounds and 2 allowances for the receptacle, for a total of 11 allowances. With #14 wire, each allowance is 2 cubic inches. So you will need to use an old work box that is at least 22 cubic inches.

For the box on the right in your diagram, you will have one less 14/3 cable coming into the box, so it will be 3 less allowances, or 8 total. Meaning that box only has to be at least 16 cubic inches. However, if the larger size box will fit, might as well use it there, too, as it will only make wiring up the connection easier.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Wayne, thank you for your detailed reply. I stand corrected- after reading your message, I checked the breaker panel and noticed that they're all 20A. Consequently, the wiring must be 12-gauge. I will turn off the breaker before starting to work on the circuit.

The good news is that I'm in the process of installing board and batten over that wall, so I'm able to open up the drywall to switch out the new work boxes with old work ones that will be able to accommodate the additional wiring. I'm going to draw up a new wiring diagram tomorrow and attach it to this thread, so that you can look it over to make sure that everything looks good on your end. Thanks again, Wayne. Much appreciate your help and input.

 

[Martina]

Replace the two reciprocal just wire them with bottom two wires. Fish wires down to the reciprocal might need deeper boxes.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for your help!

 

[Afjes]

Martina: Are any other ceiling lights or wall receptacles in the room so when you enter the room you can turn on a light either ceiling or controlling a receptacle with a plugged in lamp? I ask because by code at least one light must be able to be turned on by a switch when entering a room. If these two receptacles controlled by a switch are reconfigured to not work with the switch and no other means is provided then you are breaking code. If there are no others then if you reconfigure one of the two duplex receptacles you can still remain within code.

 

[Martina]

Martina: Are any other ceiling lights or wall receptacles in the room so when you enter the room you can turn on a light either ceiling or controlling a receptacle with a plugged in lamp? I ask because by code at least one light must be able to be turned on by a switch when entering a room. If these two receptacles controlled by a switch are reconfigured to not work with the switch and no other means is provided then you are breaking code. If there are no others then if you reconfigure one of the two duplex receptacles you can still remain within code.

Hi Afjes, thanks for the reply and for bringing this scenario to my attention. Yes, we also have recessed lighting and a ceiling fan with lighting in that same room. It appears we're good on that end (if I understood your question correctly).

 

[Martina]

Hi Wayne, thank you for your detailed reply. I stand corrected- after reading your message, I checked the breaker panel and noticed that they're all 20A. Consequently, the wiring must be 12-gauge. I will turn off the breaker before starting to work on the circuit.

The good news is that I'm in the process of installing board and batten over that wall, so I'm able to open up the drywall to switch out the new work boxes with old work ones that will be able to accommodate the additional wiring. I'm going to draw up a new wiring diagram tomorrow and attach it to this thread, so that you can look it over to make sure that everything looks good on your end. Thanks again, Wayne. Much appreciate your help and input.

Hi Wayne, I've been drawing up various diagrams, but in none of them am I able to accomplish what I'm trying to do- have all four sockets operate at all times and yet introduce the sconce lighting that is controlled by only the wall switch.

If I run all existing wiring to the lower terminals (not even sure if that's acceptable since I'd be combining red and black) and use the upper terminals exclusively for the wall sconces (removing split tabs), then I'd neither have power for the sconces nor would I be able to control them via wall switch.

If I leave everything as is (as shown in my original diagram) and simply introduce/add the wall sconce wiring to the upper terminals, then the upper sockets and wall sconces would both be simultaneously controlled by the wall switch, which is something I don't want. I would like for all four sockets to be continuously powered while being able to control the sconces via wall switch. In your opinion, is that even an option?

 

[WorthFlorida]

First you'll need to replace the outlets since the tab to splits the outlet has been removed. To add a jumper wire you already have to many wires at 12 gauge.

All you need to do is take the red wire to the wall sconces for switched power and the neutral and ground. The first box will get crowded and changing it out as you plan is good.

For continuous power for the outlets, wire in as it already is But with new outlets. At the first outlet use both gold color screws for the black wires, power in and power out to the next outlet. For the white, I would pig tail it. All three whites wired nut together with one wire to the white color screw.

 

[wwhitney]

Hi Wayne, thank you for your detailed reply. I stand corrected- after reading your message, I checked the breaker panel and noticed that they're all 20A. Consequently, the wiring must be 12-gauge.

You'll need to confirm that the wires are 12 gauge. And then the volume requirements change, as the the allowance for 12 gauge is 2.25 cubic inches. So the middle box will need to be 11 * 2.25 = 24.75 cubic inches, and the next box will need to be 8 * 2.25 = 18 cubic inches.

Also, as you are adding to the wall finish thickness, you will need to ensure that the front face of the box is flush with your new wall finish (or else use those box extension sleeves as shown in pictures 2 and 3, but if replacing the box, first choice is just to get the box set correctly). With a combustible finish such as wood, the allowance for the box to be recessed is 0", i.e. not at all.

So you might find it better to open up the drywall more and install new work boxes, rather than getting old work boxes that can grip both the board and batten and drywall. Or maybe old work boxes will work, you could go either way.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Martina]

First you'll need to replace the outlets since the tab to splits the outlet has been removed. To add a jumper wire you already have to many wires at 12 gauge.

All you need to do is take the red wire to the wall sconces for switched power and the neutral and ground. The first box will get crowded and changing it out as you plan is good.

For continuous power for the outlets, wire in as it already is But with new outlets. At the first outlet use both gold color screws for the black wires, power in and power out to the next outlet. For the white, I would pig tail it. All three whites wired nut together with one wire to the white color screw.

Ahhhh... running the red directly to the sconces- brilliant! I think I'm finally wrapping my mind around the entire configuration. Will draw a diagram and post to see if I captured everything correctly. Thank you so much!

 

[WorthFlorida]

I hope this helps some. I hacked up your drawing.

These outlets were not installed by an electrician. The wires do look like 14 gauge, not 12. An electrician would not double up on one screw terminal.

 

[Martina]

You'll need to confirm that the wires are 12 gauge. And then the volume requirements change, as the the allowance for 12 gauge is 2.25 cubic inches. So the middle box will need to be 11 * 2.25 = 24.75 cubic inches, and the next box will need to be 8 * 2.25 = 18 cubic inches.

Also, as you are adding to the wall finish thickness, you will need to ensure that the front face of the box is flush with your new wall finish (or else use those box extension sleeves as shown in pictures 2 and 3, but if replacing the box, first choice is just to get the box set correctly). With a combustible finish such as wood, the allowance for the box to be recessed is 0", i.e. not at all.

So you might find it better to open up the drywall more and install new work boxes, rather than getting old work boxes that can grip both the board and batten and drywall. Or maybe old work boxes will work, you could go either way.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne- once again, thank you for all the valuable information you provided. Now I know how to calculate volume requirements! I also appreciate you pointing out that I either need to use an additional extension sleeve or make sure that everything sits flush with the hardboard and drywall. Hadn't even considered that part yet as I'm still working on the configuration. Will post a proposed wiring diagram here soon to make sure I'm on the right track. Thanks again!

 

[Martina]

I hope this helps some. I hacked up your drawing.

These outlets were not installed by an electrician. The wires do look like 14 gauge, not 12. An electrician would not double up on one screw terminal.

Thanks so much for going through the trouble of amending the wiring diagram- very much appreciate that. I compared it with the diagram I just completed (see attached) and hope I captured everything correctly. Wayne mentioned above that the second box should have 8 allowances, but I only count 7. Perhaps I missed something?

Regarding the wiring- I just checked the breaker again and it says 20A. I turned it off to verify and actually clipped off a piece of the wiring to compare with a 12/2 roll I have on hand. It seems as though they're matching (see attached image # 2). I'll take it to the store later to compare it with a 14-gauge to make sure.

With regards to your comment about who installed the wiring... well, the answer is yes and no. We are the original owners of the house, so there's no one else in the mix. The outlets were originally wired that way, however, when we installed a wood plank wall a few years ago, I replaced the white outlet with a brown one to match the wall color. So yes, I swapped them out but also duplicated the original wiring method as I always take before pictures when wiring something in the house. Based on that, this is the method used during installation when they build our house about 25 years ago.

 

[Martina]

Wayne- once again, thank you for all the valuable information you provided. Now I know how to calculate volume requirements! I also appreciate you pointing out that I either need to use an additional extension sleeve or make sure that everything sits flush with the hardboard and drywall. Hadn't even considered that part yet as I'm still working on the configuration. Will post a proposed wiring diagram here soon to make sure I'm on the right track. Th

Wayne- once again, thank you for all the valuable information you provided. Now I know how to calculate volume requirements! I also appreciate you pointing out that I either need to use an additional extension sleeve or make sure that everything sits flush with the hardboard and drywall. Hadn't even considered that part yet as I'm still working on the configuration. Will post a proposed wiring diagram here soon to make sure I'm on the right track. Thanks again!

Hi Wayne, here is the latest diagram. You mentioned in your reply that the second outlet should have 8 allowances, but I only count 7. Can you please look it over and let me know if I missed anything? Thank you!

 

[wwhitney]

Hi Wayne, here is the latest diagram. You mentioned in your reply that the second outlet should have 8 allowances, but I only count 7. Can you please look it over and let me know if I missed anything? Thank you!

Your schematic is correct, but you can only make splices in junction boxes. So if you draw a big box around each receptacle in your schematic, so that each sconce is served by a 12/2 from the box below, you'll see that the bottom right box has a 12/3 coming in and a 12/2 going out to the sconce above.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Martina]

Your schematic is correct, but you can only make splices in junction boxes. So if you draw a big box around each receptacle in your schematic, so that each sconce is served by a 12/2 from the box below, you'll see that the bottom right box has a 12/3 coming in and a 12/2 going out to the sconce above.

Cheers, Wayne

Great! Thanks so much for getting back with me so quickly. And yes, no exterior splicing. I should have drawn those lines closer to the actual box to make that clear, but it was hard to draw that bowl of Spaghetti. Lol! Thanks again for all your help. You rock!

 

[Fitter30]

Great! Thanks so much for getting back with me so quickly. And yes, no exterior splicing. I should have drawn those lines closer to the actual box to make that clear, but it was hard to draw that bowl of Spaghetti. Lol! Thanks again for all your help. You rock!

Why are u using 12gauge wire for lites and outlets in a living area? 12 gauge wire is so much harder to work with verses 14.

 

[wwhitney]

Why are u using 12gauge wire for lites and outlets in a living area? 12 gauge wire is so much harder to work with verses 14.

Because the existing source of switched power is on a 20A breaker, so #14 would be prohibited on that circuit unless the breaker is downsized to 15A.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Martina]

Why are u using 12gauge wire for lites and outlets in a living area? 12 gauge wire is so much harder to work with verses 14.

That's just the way our home is wired, so I'll continue to build on that.