Softener/Treatment System Recommendations

[Bsmitty]

Hello all,

Longtime reader, first time poster. Truly appreciate the great information here and helpfulness of the regular contributors. Apologies in advance for a long post: Bought a house a couple years ago. House was built in 2000, originally with a large underground concrete cistern (estimate 3-4 thousand gallons.) From what I understand the cistern was filled periodically from a water truck. Sometime later (I'm not exactly sure when, I'm trying to find out more history about my well) a well was dug and routed to the cistern. So the well feeds the cistern and the cistern feeds the house. Inside the house there is a pressure pump, then a whole house two-stage big-blue filter set-up. First stage is a 20" pleated sediment filter, second stage is a 20" GAC filter. 1" copper pipe into house to pressure pump, 3/4" copper from pump to filters, PEX after the filters to the rest of the house. House is on a septic tank. This is a large house with 5 whole baths and two half baths.

When we moved in and had the standard water tests done, everything was relatively safe with some low levels of coliform bacteria which indicated the well should be treated but were not indicative of serious contamination issues. Fast forward a couple years (to now.) We've been drinking the water with no issues. It's clear and tastes fine. I occasionally pick up some sulfer smell but suspect it's from the hot water heater, not the well. I try to change the filters (probably not as often as I should) quarterly. From day 1 we've fought hard water and the associated cleaning challenges. I try not to think about what it's doing to my appliances. After getting sick of trying to repair faucets/cartridges, I was doing some online research and stumbled across this forum. I figured if I'm going to fix this I should do it right.

Per many recommendations here, I bought a Hach 5-B: Water hardness per this was 23 GPG
I also had more thorough lab tests done:

• PH 7.4
• Alkalinity 284 mg/L
• Chloride 40 mg/L
• Fluoride 0.37 mg/L
• Total Hardness 353 mg/L
• Nitrate-Nitrogen Less than 1.0 mg/L
• Calcium 112 mg/L
• Magnesium 17.9 mg/L
• Sodium 22.8 mg/L
• Sulfate 27.5 mg/L
• Iron Less than 0.1 mg/L
• Manganese Less than 0.1 mg/L
• Electrical Conductivity 734 umhos/cm
• Total Dissolved Solids (calculated) 521 mg/L
• Total Coliforms/100mL 14 cfu/100mL
• E. Coli/100 mL None detected
• Hydrogen Sulfide Less than 0.003 mg/L

For softening: We are a family of 5, 3 of which are kids. The calculators show I need ~65K capacity with at least 3.5 cubic feet of resin. I'm leaning towards an 80K softener with 4.0 cubic feet of resin and a Fleck 7000-SXT valve. Unfortunately I have no way to route soft water to some areas and hard water to others (outside bibs for example) so it's all or nothing.

For the bacteria: I'm hesitant to try shock-sanitizing the well for a number of reasons...primarily the large volume of water in the cistern...would take me a week to circulate through and another week to drain! I also don't think the well is the problem...I suspect the cistern...any one time attempts to get rid of bacteria will likely lead to it coming back (not to mention the recent PEX bacteria discussions on here.) So I'm leaning towards a chlorine injection system, pressure pump, contact tank, carbon filter (with another Fleck 7000), softener, out to house. My goal is to have a low maintenance relatively bullet proof system that provides safe water for the house/family.

So finally some of my questions:

• What else should I be considering and/or what other information would be helpful? I know I haven't calculated the flow rates of my pressure pump yet (and I'm actually not even sure what pressure it's set to.
• When is a chlorine system vs. an ultraviolet light system better (I know the light has to be after the softener)
• Is there any way to potentially use the cistern as the contact tank? It's probably 25 feet from the house so I'm not sure how I would store/pump/meter chlorine to the cistern while keeping it protected from weather.
• Should I consider putting an RO filter in the kitchen for the sink/fridge/plants? Because my water is pretty hard, I'm assuming this increases the level of sodium and thus potentially impacts the taste right?
• Finally, as I start to get ready to pull the trigger on this stuff, any recommendations on reputable dealers?

Thank you for reading my novel and any advice you give!

 

[Reach4]

Some comments on a few of your items:

For softening: We are a family of 5, 3 of which are kids. The calculators show I need ~65K capacity with at least 3.5 cubic feet of resin. I'm leaning towards an 80K softener with 4.0 cubic feet of resin and a Fleck 7000-SXT valve. Unfortunately I have no way to route soft water to some areas and hard water to others (outside bibs for example) so it's all or nothing.

http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php says 3 cuft, but you are probably adding some for yard use.

When you get your softener installed, have a new hose bib installed if you cannot pipe to an existing hose bib. Soft water is nice for washing the car and mixing lawn chemicals, it is not good for plants.

Is there any way to potentially use the cistern as the contact tank? It's probably 25 feet from the house so I'm not sure how I would store/pump/meter chlorine to the cistern while keeping it protected from weather.

There are systems that drop chlorine pellets. I have no relevant experience.

Should I consider putting an RO filter in the kitchen for the sink/fridge/plants? Because my water is pretty hard, I'm assuming this increases the level of sodium and thus potentially impacts the taste right?

RO gets rid of the sodium. You do want to feed an RO filter with soft water. I think you meant to say that the softener increases sodium because sodium ions replace calcium and magnesium ions. However I don't expect your softened water to taste salty unless you are unusually sensitive to salt. Some people prefer to drink unsoftened water so that they get the calcium and magnesium. You could have a spiggot installed near the water softener if you don't want to run an additional line to the kitchen.

(I know the light has to be after the softener)

Never heard that. What would be the theory? From what I understand, to use UV, the water has to be free of particles that can hide bacteria.

Nice-looking water numbers.

 

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[Bsmitty]

Thanks Reach4. I'd read somewhere that with really hard water...a UV light ahead of the softener could not be effective as the grains could literally shield the bacteria from the light. Not sure how true that is. Also, you were right, I said that wrong about the RO filter...I understand the softener adds sodium while replacing the calcium, etc...so an RO filter in the kitchen would be to remove the sodium for cooking/plants. I guess this could always be done later. I was thinking that since my water is pretty hard, this would mean more sodium, and thus potentially change in taste.

Can anyone else offer any suggestions on potentially chlorinating my cistern, or if I'm on the right track with the inside chlorine injection->contact tank->carbon filter? Am I making this more complex than I need to with relatively low levels of bacteria (I understand that technically the only acceptable level is 0...but since it's not causing any problems....)

Finally, any recommendations on where to order this stuff...Quality Water Associates, Clean Water Store, etc...? If we can't/shouldn't discuss that here please send me a DM.

Thanks!

 

[ditttohead]

I would do a few things. I am not a fan of BB Carbon filters for your application since their flow ratings and capacity are simply way too small but since you have it you can use it to your advantage for now and simply ditch the carbon filter later.

Sanitize your cistern and be sure to have a new Carbon filter installed. Add 1 gallon of household 5.25% bleach for very thousand gallons of water in your cistern. Let it sit for a few hours, after running bleach to all of the faucets, showers etc in the house. This will give you approximately 50 ppm bleach which is an effective sanitizing method. Install the BB GAC filter, and test to make sure the chlorine is effectively removed by the filter. If not, then you will be going though a lot of water but... chlorine is fairly easy for carbon to remove so the BB should do fairly well. These few gallons of chlorine will basically completely use the capacity of the carbon so be ready to replace it a couple times if chlorine start to break through from your cistern.

Install a softener, 3-4 CF would be fine, the larger diameter tanks have s lightly higher chance of channeling, but in general this does not happen. 16" would be the maximum size tank I would recommend for a residential application.

A UV would be highly recommended after the softener. The uv quartz sleeve tends to get easily fouled in hard water so afte the softener is the obvious location. Also you want the UV to be the last item the water hits prior to going into your house.

Chlorine injection is recommended, the UV would be a secondary sanitization method, but this may also require the addition of a contact tank, and a dehlorinization system. If the problem is in your cistern, then keeping it sanitary may be the best solution and reduce your maintenance etc.

Yes to the RO for drinking water. RO systems work much better when they are fed with soft water.

 

[Bsmitty]

Thanks dittohead! I definitely would not have installed the BB setup, inherited it. This is my first experience with well water. Love it. Slowly figuring it all out. Now you've got me thinking (dangerous!):

The softener will happen for sure. For the bacteria, are you saying chlorine AND UV could be recommended?

What if I did something similar to what you said but instead of using the BB GAC to get rid of the chlorine, I installed a bigger carbon backwash filter like you would put after a contact tank and before the softener. I probably don't need to treat every gallon with chlorine injection year round. If I periodically manually put the amount of bleach you recommended in the cistern (effectively using it as the contact tank), but then always had the carbon and softener running, it would reduce initial cost, sanitize the bacteria, remove the chlorine and soften, and not require maintaining the chlorine injection tank. It would be a manual process to add bleach every once in awhile, but nothing is going to be labor free. Would this deplete the carbon media in the larger filter faster or slower than an injection system? Are there any risks with chlorine injection in your basement (fumes/gas/etc...) below living spaces? I could also add the UV light at the end of the system to catch any bacteria making it past everything else.

Thanks again!

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, I am newbie. Post moved.

 

[Bsmitty]

? Was this intended for this thread?

 

[ditttohead]

Your design is sound. A large carbon tank has many other benefits as well. The reduction of organic chemicals and many other contaminats that may be present in your water. Carbon is not just for chlorine reduction.

Just a wild estimate, there is much more to it, but this is a common guideline.

1 CF of carbon is good for approximately 1 million ppm. A gallon of bleach is a tad over 50,000 ppm. So a ft3 of carbon should be able to handle 18-20 gallons of bleach.

Sounds like a fun experiment, I may try that since it is such an easy one to do. I will post my results if I do this one!

If a water supply has a known contamination, then a redundant sanitizing method is highly recommended. Chlorine and UV, Ozone, etc.

 

[Reach4]

It seems to me that, if you could avoid the freezing problem, you could inject the chlorine solution into the cistern. You could use a peristaltic pump, such as Stenner to pump a measured rate whenever the well pump runs. You could get it started with a bottle of bleach, but I think you could maintain 4 to 6 ppm in the cistern with a pump. Yes, it would take a while to get this dialed in.

There are people who have made a good case for hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorine. The increased cost is not all that big. On the other hand, I think chlorine concentration is easier to measure.

The backwashing coconut activated carbon filter would remove the chlorine and most sediment. One or big blue filters would remove the smaller sediment that remains. I use a Pentek DGD-5005-20 cartridge element followed by a Pentek WP1BB20P. Maybe overkill. If the filter stays clean, it still is not a waste; it would still be a QC thing.

 

[ditttohead]

Calculating the injection ratio to achieve a 1-2 ppm residual is actually very easy if the pump flow rate is known. Chlorine is nice since it is so easily purchased from every store. The Stenner Pumps are one of the best in my opinion. We do a dozen different chlorine injection systems, but for non variable flow rate applications, the stenner cant be beat!

 

[Bsmitty]

So staying with your rough math...if I had 3 CF of carbon and added ~3 gallons of chlorine (3K gallon cistern) quarterly, 12 gallons a year, that media would last about 5 years. Not bad..and even when I have to replace it that's much cheaper and more effective than replacing the BB GAC quarterly.

In a perfect world I would trench a 3 ft deep line to run the chlorine solution from the basement to the pipe running between the well and the cistern. I could store the chlorine tank and pump in the basement and inject the chlorine as the water runs into the cistern. That project might have to wait until the honey-do list gets shorter. For now I foresee walking out to the cistern, opening the lid...and pouring!

 

[Bannerman]

How do you now prevent the water inlet from the well from freezing during times when water is not being pumped? I expect the inlet to the cistern is above the water level and so would be susceptible to freezing if not heated.

An online search to establish the freezing point for bleach has shown 18-19 degrees F for regular 5% household solution whereas higher concentrations have an even lower freezing point, if that is of any help top you.

 

[R. Hermann]

Have you considered bypassing the cistern? If you are looking at trenching a line to the cistern for the chlorine system why not trench a line from the well-side of the cistern to the house-supply and remove the potential contamination from the cistern permanently?

 

[R. Hermann]

And someone please correct me if I am wrong: the water heater should never be adding a sulfur smell/taste to the water. Any sulfur smell is coming from the well (most likely) or in the lines/cistern.

 

[Bannerman]

the water heater should never be adding a sulfur smell

If the odor is only in the hot water, then the issue is likely a reaction with the WH anode, Replacing the anode with one of an alternate material will usually resolve the odor issue.

Edited to add: A WH that is maintained at a low temperature, can become an incubator for bacteria. Raising the temperature to above 150 F for a few hours, 2 or 3 times per year, will act to sanitize the interior of the WH

 

[Reach4]

A powered anode does not contribute to H2S generation, but it provides the kind of WH protection that a magnesium rod would. Not cheap, but I figure to move my powered anode to my next WH if my WH fails.

 

[Bsmitty]

Yep, that's what I suspected...the anodes. Electric hot water heater. This is a very minor issue which I only notice sometimes in the shower. I expect it will largely be addressed when the bacteria issue is resolved.

The cistern is buried and the water inlet from the well is below ground. I'm in the midwest (Kansas City suburbs). I've been here for two years, both winters were relatively mild. We've had some extended below freezing time, haven't had any issues so far. I don't want to bypass the cistern for a couple of reasons:

- I was told the wells around here are not high production...so the cistern acts as a nice buffer in high demand situations. The well pump has a Coyote controller on it...turns it on for a few minutes (say 5 minutes every hour) around the clock.
- I like having the cistern always full of relatively fresh water - for scenarios where there are power outages or if the aquifer were to get low, I know I have some emergency back up water if I need it.

We installed a float switch in the cistern when we moved in. When we shut off the well pump and used water for a week to lower the cistern level for installation, I guess we barely put a dent in the water level.

 

[Bannerman]

Although not as easy to obtain as 5% household bleach, dry chlorine pellets might be a practical solution for adding chlorine to the incoming well water and using the cistern as a contact tank.

Below are 2 links to to examples of chlorine pellet feeders that would not require electrical power and could be installed on the incoming water line to the cistern.
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/CS000120.html#tab=tab1
http://www.vitasalus.net/inline-chlorinator-chlorine-feeder-system

 

[Bsmitty]

I will look into these non-powered pellet feeders. Another option I was made aware of is a pellet feeder which sits on top of the well head...powered by the pump power, drops pellets when the well pump is on. They must be weather resistant as they are designed for outside use. Would also use the cistern as the contact tank. Anyone have any experience with these?

 

[ditttohead]

Chlorine tablet feeders have there place but are not usually recommended for most applications. I distribute the one shown in the first link, we stock a large quantity of them but they are not ideal. The tablets that are listed for potable water applications are a little on the expensive side, the feeders need a bit of maintenance, and the feed rate of chlorine is only mildly controlled. Great if you do not have the availability of power, or if your only concern is the cost for today, not the long term operating costs and maintenance. The peristaltic pump for consistent flow applications will cost a little more initially, repairs are typically 5 minutes a year, change the pump tube for a few bucks. The chlorine pellet systems should be cleaned monthly, the tablets tend to get a bit messy inside. This is easy and not a big deal. Any chlorine injection system is going to take a little bit of work. I still like the idea of sanitizing the cistern and retesting regularly. Put in a good quality UV system and you should be good to go.

Definitely keep the cistern. It is great to have a large quantity of water available should any problems occur. Should you need to replace your well pump, you wont be paying triple time charges on the weekend when all pumps tend to fail.