Softener. Time for replacement

[Supr]

hi, new here and first time actually replacing my softener.
first of all, I'm so glad i found this site. its by FAR the most informative i have found. and not having pushy salespeople is a big plus.
so, i currently have a GE GNPR40L00 which i cant really seem to find any info for. I've had it for almost exactly 10 years now and its throwing a Error 3 which has to do with the timer. i had the person who originally installed it come out and take a look and he said that its pretty much reached the end of its life and would be 3-6k to replace. now 10 years is what ive been reading but 3-6k?????
I've done tons of researching and looks like you can get a great quality setup for $6-900 and this is definitely something i can install myself. specifically looking at the Fleck 5600sxt, that's what everyone seems to recommend.
any tips for a noob? i also read about a couple other brands, which don't come to mind but this one seems to be everyone's favorite.
I'm starting at the beginning by testing my water. after that i need to somehow figure out how much water we use. no meter here since were on a well so any help in this area would be great. from my calculations so far i would need a unit that does around 40,000gr.
the unit i have now says its rated at 4,720 grains @ 3lbs, I'm not sure what to make of that.
i also have a question about the drain. i know its best to have it go to a floor drain but the way its setup now is that i have a restroom in the corner of my garage and this is on the other side of my restroom wall. the drain goes into the restroom sink drain i know it works because you can hear it drain but after it leaves the softener and before it enters the wall there is a 6" rise. not sure why he did it this way because it was the same plumber who plumbed our house that installed this system. is this 6" rise a problem? would the new unit pump the brine out and into the drain?

sorry for the long read. any help would be great.
thanks

 

[Reach4]

I'm starting at the beginning by testing my water. after that i need to somehow figure out how much water we use. no meter here since were on a well so any help in this area would be great. from my calculations so far i would need a unit that does around 40,000gr.

Good start. City water or private well? Look for hardness, pH, arsenic, iron, manganese, and other things.

from my calculations so far i would need a unit that does around 40,000gr.

What are you presuming for hardness and the number of people being supplied with soft water?

the drain goes into the restroom sink drain i know it works because you can hear it drain but after it leaves the softener and before it enters the wall there is a 6" rise. not sure why he did it this way because it was the same plumber who plumbed our house that installed this system. is this 6" rise a problem?

Six feet and a lot more would not be a problem.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Supr]

Thank you very much for the reply.
It is a private well.
I was assuming 10 for hardness. This is with 4 adults. Not sure how to compensate for all water usage ( sinks, washer, dish washer, showers).

Also forgot to ask but would having a post filter be a good idea? I get a lot of calcium buildup. This is one of the reasons I want to test and do the job myself so I can make sure it's done right. I don't even know if the original unit was setup correctly. I just assumed it was.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you very much for the reply.
It is a private well.
I was assuming 10 for hardness. This is with 4 adults. Not sure how to compensate for all water usage ( sinks, washer, dish washer, showers).

A 54x10 tank with 1.5 cuft of resin would be sufficient for up to 15 grains of compensated hardness. We would want your hardness, iron, and manganese levels to know the compensated hardness. You want the softener to be able to go 7 days or more between regens.

Also forgot to ask but would having a post filter be a good idea? I get a lot of calcium buildup. This is one of the reasons I want to test and do the job myself so I can make sure it's done right. I don't even know if the original unit was setup correctly. I just assumed it was.

A 5 to 10 micron after the softener would be good, but I think one before the softener instead would be good. There are advantages to each.

When you flush your pressure tank, do you get much debris? What does that look like? When you do that, try catching the first few gallons in a bucket to look at the sediment.

 

[Supr]

I'll try to get that information asap. I contacted a well known company online and they're sending me a test but is there one you recommend? The ones I find at the home stores are for drinking water and pools.

By flush do you mean when it drains the brine? Because I have never physically done anything to the unit and when it does drain it goes directly to the drain. It's plumbed into the sink drain.

 

[Bannerman]

By flush do you mean when it drains the brine?

Reach4 referred to flushing your well system's pressure tank, not the softener.

Average water consumption usually will fall between 50 - 75 gallons per person per day, the lower amount when house occupants are conservative and appliances and fixtures are reasonably new and efficient. When consumption is not known, 65 gallons/person/day is often used as a reasonable average mid-point estimate.

The water's specific hardness, iron and manganese amounts are important when choosing and programming a softener. The testing lab most recommended on this forum is National Labs WaterCheck: http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5

Each softener's useable capacity can usually be adjusted by programming the maximum capacity between regeneration cycles. Each capacity setting will correspond to the amount of salt required to regenerate that capacity. The chart below will show various capacities and salt settings for a large range of softener sizes. Salt amounts shown are based on pounds per cubic feet of resin. For example, an 8lb/ft3 setting for a softener containing 1.5 ft3 of resin, will use 12 lbs salt (8 X 1.5 ft3) to regenerate 36,000 grains of capacity each regeneration cycle whereas a 2 ft3 softener using the same 8 lbs/ft3 setting will consume 16 lbs to regenerate 48,000 grains usable capacity.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/resin-chart-jpg.53316/

Since higher salt efficiency will result in lower quality water (higher hardness leakage) and will require more frequent regeneration which will consume more water for regeneration each year, the most recommended salt settings will be either 6 or 8 lbs per ft3 of resin as those provide a good balance between salt efficiency, capacity, water quality and water consumed for regeneration. Water quality and salt efficiency for each salt setting is indicated at the bottom of the chart.

 

[Supr]

Ive never flushed the well. I'm new to well systems so ill look into that. i found a great post last night by Valveman that explains tanks and how they work so I'll read up.

i believe i was basing my calculations at 75GPP. the house was built 10 years ago so that's also how old the appliances are.

it looks like with that water test kit you send a sample to the lab. i'm assuming the test they are sending me is just test strips. are there any good? i mean sending a sample to a lab to analyze it is obviously the way to go but what good are the strips?

also, any opinions on which softener would be good and what sellers or sponsors you guys prefer?

 

[HudsonDIY]

I'm far from a water softener expert, just a consumer. But from my point of view of having owned 3 Fleck systems they are pretty much bulletproof. Once it's set up you dump a bag of salt in once a month and forget it. The previous owners of my current home did their best to neglect the Fleck that came with the home. A little clean out, some salt and it's working flawlessly. I'm sure the experts will agree. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ditttohead]

Agreed on the Fleck, but... get a real water test done. You are now your own municipality and the safety of your water is very important. A proper water test can give you piece of mind and it will allow us to better recommend a proper water treatment program. http://watercheck.myshopify.com/?aff=5
Once we see the results of a real test we can definitely help you out with some good recommendations.

 

[Supr]

Thanks all.
I contacted the water department and they told me they don't do their own testing but referred me to the 3rd party they use. If I tell them what I'm doing will they know what to test for or do I need to tell them specifically?

 

[Oldyellr]

It's always been a crap shoot determining what hardness to set your water softener at. I've searched my municipal records and have seen numbesr as low as 2.5 gpg and as high as 25 gpg. I've even invited snake oil salesmen into my house to test my water. There are also many businesses selling water softeners that could probably test your water. but they probably would want to come to your house and make their pitch. Water softeners can be bough for as low as $500 to 10x that. You can also sign up to rent one for a lot more in the long run. When I had a rental I was offered a buy-out after a year for $1000 after spending as much on rent when I could have bought a new one for half that. I told them to pick it up and bought a used one for $75, which served me well for a couple of years. If you can do plumbing you can install a water softener. Nowadays you can even do it if you can't solder.

So getting back to determining hardness. You can buy hardness test strips online (make sure they're for hardness, not swimming pools) that will get you in the ballpark. If you're not happy with the results you can always up the gpg, or if you want to save salt, you can take it down and see how you like it. It's not the end of the world if you get it wrong.

 

[Supr]

oldyelly, thank you for the reply. i did actually stumble upon your story through my searching.
one thing my dumbass forgot is that my brother in law works for a huge company that actually does soil/water testing for state agencys and the military. most likely he'd be able to get the testing done for me.

so we had a sales rep come to give an an estimate and what an experience that was hahaha. now i believe everything ive read about them. surprised he didnt try to sell me a vacuum cleaner while he was at it. anyway, looking at over 7k for them to install their Kinetico system. so at this point i'm pretty well set on doing it my self with the 5600sxt. just need to get my water tested to find out what type of pre-filter i need right?
also he mentioned that in his 20+ years hes never seen a drain line go to a P trap instead of directly to a clean out. i figured this was a sales tactic because i don't really see anything wrong with it. down the drain is down the drain right?

 

[Supr]

one other note. the system that they are selling is non-electric. uses water flow to run the timer. i have not yet seen this design in all of my research. sounds like a good idea but if it were wouldnt everyone be doing it?

 

[blaze4545]

sounds like a good idea but if it were wouldnt everyone be doing it?

The bad outweighs the good.

Pros:

• Save $10 a year on electricity
• No circuit board so save money on replacing that single part
• Great for installs where there is no imeddiate power source

Cons:

• Substitutes the common piston and stack/ rotary valves with a overly complex 5 layer system
  
• Uses springs and ball bearings, A pain to work with
• Proprietary parts tripple the price of Fleck/Clack
• Kinetico dealers charge a premium for service calls
• PRICE!

 

[Oldyellr]

one other note. the system that they are selling is non-electric. uses water flow to run the timer. i have not yet seen this design in all of my research. sounds like a good idea but if it were wouldnt everyone be actually measured hardness and doing it?

All water softeners that I know now measure water flow to determine when to recharge based on the hardness and other parameters selected. Years ago I had one that monitored hardness and recharged when necessary. When it died I never found another one that worked that way. Seems like how they should all work, but apparently that's not what the manufacturers think is the most profitable model. Leave it up to the customer to determine the hardness and then not be blamed if they don't get it right.

 

[Supr]

All water softeners that I know now measure water flow to determine when to recharge based on the hardness and other parameters selected. Years ago I had one that monitored hardness and recharged when necessary. When it died I never found another one that worked that way. Seems like how they should all work, but apparently that's not what the manufacturers think is the most profitable model. Leave it up to the customer to determine the hardness and then not be blamed if they don't get it right.

I was actually thinking this the other day but I figured maybe they didn't have the technology to have it work accurately. That's definitely the best way to go.

So I'm ready to pull the trigger on the 5600, is there a seller/site you guys prefer? And about the pre filter, do I need to wait for the test or is there a specific kind that I can just go ahead and order?
BTW, discountwatersofteners.com is the first one my search sends me to. This is the company that is sending me their free test. I feel like they push their Genesis system but they do offer the 5600.

 

[Supr]

so i went and ordered a big blue filter housing (20").
i think im also going to not go with the SXT, from my reading it seems like the mechanical timer is the old tried and true workhorse that lasts forever. am i correct on that? or would the electronic timer have more benefits and only being an extra $20?
discount is the one place that keeps coming up when i search for this model and seems pretty legit so may just order from them unless someone has a place they prefer.
thanks again for all the help.
i'll be removing my old unit tomorrow to redo the plumbing and add ball valves for bypass and get it ready for the new one.

 

[Reach4]

so i went and ordered a big blue filter housing (20").
i think im also going to not go with the SXT, from my reading it seems like the mechanical timer is the old tried and true workhorse that lasts forever. am i correct on that? or would the electronic timer have more benefits and only being an extra $20?

You want a softener to have metering to decide what day to regenerate.

Mechanical timers don't last forever by any means. The motors and gears are weak points.

 

[HudsonDIY]

Even your klutzy brother in law who needs directions for a screwdriver could setup and maintain the mechanical 5600. I can't speak to the electronic model.

 

[Supr]

thanks you, and thats exactly the problem i'm having right now with my current softener.

also, i just received actual lab results for my hardness and the test strip.
the test strip shows 0-3 GPG. the lab test shows 81 mg/L (4.73 GPG).
so my estimate of a 40k unit was way overkill but ive also read that hardness can change, sometimes drasticaly, depending on time of day, season, weather.... is this normal?
if so then i need to reevaluate my softener sizing.

this is what the testing found:
Boron ND 0.20 mg/L
Calcium 16 1.0 mg/L
Iron 0.12 0.10 mg/L
Magnesium 10 1.0 mg/L
Manganese ND 0.020 mg/L
Sodium 16 1.0 mg/L

pH T-14 7.24 1.68 pH Units
Specific Conductance (EC) 220 20 umhos/cm
Total Dissolved Solids 110 10 mg/L
Hardness, Total 81 5 mg/L
Total Coliforms Absent
E. Coli Absent

can someone translate this to english haha