Softener. Starting over and could use some advice.

[gargodude]

This is my first post here. Seems like there is more real knowledge here than on most of the equipment sales websites I have visited, so I thought it would be a good idea to sign up.

We live in Northern CA in the Sierra foothills, are on well water and it's just my wife and I in a 2 bathroom house. I would say that our water use is a bit above normal since my wife likes to take 10 minute showers with our 4GPM head and we seem to do about 7 loads of laundry per week. I installed a calcite neutralizer and a softener 10-1/2 years ago because when I bough the house 13 years ago, I had noticed blue stains under the fixtures from the acid water eating at the copper pipes and didn't want to end up replacing the plumbing like my neighbor had. There were also gray streaks on the sides of the toilet bowls which have since been controlled by the softener. The only adjustments I have made to the system were upon advice from the place where I bought it. That was changing the salt setting gradually higher from 12 to 18.

I recently went through the units because they were losing their effectiveness. My neutralizer was losing its effectiveness from channeling and freshly added media was being drawn out into the plumbing during backwash so I replaced it with a 2.5 cu ft. upflow unit with a non-backwashing Clack head. The water in the house is now at pH 7.0. I also re-bedded my softener which is a 1.5 cu ft. unit with an Autotrol 268 head and a 460i control. I had originally ordered a 1.0 cu ft. softener (10 years ago) upon the advice of CAI Technologies (now out of business) but they sent me a 1.5 cu. ft. unit by mistake. They said I could just keep it and use it without issues so I did. I realize that it's too big for just me and my wife, but that's what I have so I want to make it work if I can.

When I had my water tested (2 different places, 10 years ago), it measured between 4 and 5 grains of hardness, no iron and had a pH of 6.6. I have a nice electronic pH meter that still shows the pH at 6.6 (before the system) and I assume the hardness is about the same. I've read that my neutralizer adds about 5-6 grains of hardness so I set the softener hardness at 11 (5+6), the capacity at 38 (recommended by CAI when I bought it) and the salt dial at 13. The brine tank was cleaned out and seems to be working properly.

I am concerned that I will experience what I have for the last 10 years which is a really long period between regenerations, followed by really soft, slippery feeling water which fades away over the next few weeks and returns upon the next regen cycle which are about 3 weeks apart. I have been reading a few articles about "efficient salt usage" which suggest setting the salt dial lower and having the softener regenerate more often which will use less salt over time (while using more water) and reducing the regen period to about 7 days which is supposed to be optimum. It would seem to me that the softener would not regen more often by simply adjusting the salt dial. You would have to fool it into more frequent regeneration by increasing the hardness or reducing the capacity setting, right?

For all you pros out there: If you had this situation how would you set this up?

 

[Bannerman]

First off, you need to obtain an up-to-date lab test. Without knowing your current water conditions, no one will know the appropriate treatment method or settings for the equipment you already own.

You should also obtain a Hach 5B Total Hardness Test Kit. That will then allow periodic testing the hardness exiting the Acid Neutralizer. Your equipment needs to be calibrated for your actual water conditions so assumptions and going by what you read is not appropriate.

From your description, it seems the softener is running short of capacity before regeneration occurs. Has it run short of salt previously so that it wasn't fully regenerated? After restoring the total capacity, the usable capacity and salt dose could be adjusted for more appropriate and efficient operation, but that should also take actual water conditions into consideration.

Do you continue to use Calcite in the new neutralizer? As neutralizer media is consumed over time, how often is the media topped-up?

You said the original neutralizer was channelling, but as it utilized a backwashing valve, channeling should not be occurring if the appropriate backwash rate and frequency was programed. Do you continue to own the original neutralizer backwashing valve?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

with a non-backwashing Clack head.

Is that Clack head powered by electricity? Is it a manually operated valve? Or is it just a connection with no controls?

http://waterpurification.pentair.co...ad/en/1223489-autotrol-263-268-rev-h-de16.pdf

The 268 comes with various controllers. Some of them have metering, and some are only timed. See if you can find the model of your timer/control. If not, post a photo.

Note that reducing salt dose does not normally reduce the softening time from 21 days to 7 days. Maybe from 21 to 14 days, but doing some calculations would be good.

 

[Bannerman]

The capacity that is regenerated is directly related to the salt setting programmed. Reducing the salt setting without also reducing the programmed capacity, will not cause the softener to regenerate more often, but will only cause it to run out of capacity even sooner than it does now.

A more appropriate capacity ('C') setting will be 30,000 grains which would then require a salt setting of 9 lbs. As it appears the softener capacity is currently being exhausted between regen cycles, then the total resin capacity should first be restored when making the other adjustments.

Since the salt setting is currently 13 lbs, that means 4.3 gals of water is now within the brine tank (1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt). To restore the resin's total capacity, using a bucket, add an additional 3.5 gallons or more water to the brine tank, wait ~2 hours for additional salt to dissolve and then initiate a regeneration cycle. If you have already made the Capacity and salt setting adjustments, then 3 gallons will enter the brine tank to dissolve 9 lbs salt for the next regeneration cycle which will occur when 30K grains capacity has been consumed.

Since your hardness maybe much harder than your assumptions, suggest programming 15 grains hardness until the actual hardness is determined with the Hach 5B kit.

Current estimated water use:
38K capacity @ 11gpg = 3,455 gallons between regen cycles.
If actually taking 3 weeks to regen, then average daily use is 3,455 / 21 days = 165 gallons/day (82.5 gallons/per person/day)

Estimated regen frequency after adjustments:
30K @ 15gpg = 2,000 gallons so at 165 gallons/day = expected regeneration frequency = 12 days which is ok IF there is no iron being removed by the softener.

 

[gargodude]

To answer Reach4, the head on the neutralizer is just a connection with no controls. It has a Vortech media tank with a strainer at the top.

OK Bannerman, I ordered a Hach 5B kit which should be here in a couple of days.

I do continue to use calcite in the new neutralizer. I would top off the old one about every 9-12 months or when it would get down to about halfway up the tank. I would fill it to about 12" from the top. I had it set to backwash every 3 days. I wasn't aware that you could change the flow rate as I used it the way I bought it (I am aware now). What prompted me to replace it was the last time I topped it off. When I put the unit in backwash mode, I shined a bright light behind the unit to watch what was happening. The fresh 8-10 inches of the new media was rising to the top of the tank then it started flowing out of the tank and into the drain through the head. I could see that there was an area of clear water in between the old stuff at the bottom of the tank and the calcite that floated to the top. This led me to believe that the old calcite had clumped together over time (10 years). I also discovered that this had been happening for some time as there was a pile of calcite on the ground around the air gap where the unit's drain tube joined the drain pipe under the house! After running the backwash cycle a few times to observe this, the valve started leaking when the cycle was complete so I figured that would have had to rebuild it. I also wasn't sure what state the calcite would be in and whether or not I could get what I thought might be a solid clump of calcite out of the tank, so I just bought a new unit to get everything back on line sooner. The new unit works fine (pH 7.0) and no loose calcite comes out of the tank. The larger size should let it go much longer between fillings.

I do still have the old unit and decided to see if I could actually get the old stuff out the other day. It turns out that it wasn't clumped together after all and I was able to siphon out all of the old calcite with a hose. I'm not sure what was causing the fresh stuff to separate from the old and come out of the top. Malfunctioning valve perhaps?

I will take your advice and add some water to the tank (there might be about 4-5 gal. in there now). I will also re-adjust the capacity, hardness and salt settings per your advice and adjust as necessary when I get my test kit. Your calculations make much more sense to me than the way it was.

I really appreciate your help and wish I had known about this forum sooner.

 

[Reach4]

What prompted me to replace it was the last time I topped it off. When I put the unit in backwash mode, I shined a bright light behind the unit to watch what was happening. The fresh 8-10 inches of the new media was rising to the top of the tank then it started flowing out of the tank and into the drain through the head.

The way a backwashing calcite tank works is that during service, the water flows down through the calcite bed. During backwash, water flows up at a rate determined by the drain line flow control (DLFC). There can be a "top basket" to strain out any calcite pieces that rise too high during backwash, but if the calcite is only filled to about 2/3 of the tank, the controlled rate should keep the particles from rising that high. The purpose of the backwash is mainly to remove any channeling that can develop in the calcite.

A non-backwashing unit can more readily develop channeling. You may find that you can cause the media to fluff up by turning on faucets to cause the right amount of upflow to cause the media to fluff up but not blow out.

 

[Bannerman]

Your calculations make much more sense to me than the way it was.

I estimated your usage on the settings you stated. I did not take into consideration any reserve setting currently programmed. Reserve is typically 1 day usage so your average daily water consumption maybe slightly less than calculated and my estimate for 12 days between regens for 30K capacity, may workout to be 11 days depending on reserve capacity remaining and actual water use. Those are probably good enough estimates for comparison purposes if utilized consistently.

I would fill it to about 12" from the top.

You didn't state the size of the original neutralizer. I suspect 12" maybe too close to the top of the tank. A top screen is not typically relied upon for preventing media loss during backwash, but more so during shipping.

The fresh 8-10 inches of the new media was rising to the top of the tank then it started flowing out of the tank and into the drain through the head.

Did you perform backwash directly after the new media was added, or was there adequate time alloted for the new media to absorb water and release adhering air particles?

I wasn't aware that you could change the flow rate as I used it the way I bought it (I am aware now).

The backwash rate is typically controlled with a flow restrictor which is a mechanical device with a specific flow rate. Changing the DLFC rate requires exchanging the restrictor and so is not as simple as entering a number on a digital keypad.

The backwash rate to be utilized is not only dependant on the type of media but also the tank diameter and water temperature. Warmer water is less dense than cold so more gpm is required than when colder water is used.

I'm not sure what was causing the fresh stuff to separate from the old and come out of the top.

If the old media was actually channeling, I then suspect smaller diameter channels would allow higher velocity backwash flow which could then cause any new uncompacted media sitting above to be lifted higher than planned.

 

[gargodude]

The original neutralizer was 1.5 cu ft. I misspoke earlier when I said I filled it to 12" from the top of the tank. I filled it to 12" below the fill plug. I did not know that the media needed time to absorb water and release air. This might have been part of my my problem. Typically, I would fill it, then put the head into backwash mode, then open the water supply valve about 1/4 of the way until the cloudiness would be gone from the closest faucet. Then I would open the supply valve all the way and let the unit finish its backwash cycle. FYI, the backwash flow restrictor of the old unit had a number 2 on it. The well water is pretty cold since the well is a few hundred feet deep.

How is the softener reserve capacity set?

 

[ditttohead]

Calcite coming out during backwash is typically caused by a few possible reasons.

1: A sudden drop in water temperature. Colder water is denser, therefore less water is needed to achieve the same amount of backwash.
2: Worn DLFC button. The DLFC button regulated the flow rate regardless of pressure. When these get worn or the rubber button hardens, they regulate less... allowing too much water to go to the drain.
3: Broken top screen. Assuming you have low iron and a side port fill plug, these units can have a top screen. If the DLFC is flowing too high, the screen will prevent media loss... for a while. The top screens that are commonly used are not designed to hold back media, they will fail.

Hope this helps.

 

[gargodude]

Calcite coming out during backwash is typically caused by a few possible reasons.

1: A sudden drop in water temperature. Colder water is denser, therefore less water is needed to achieve the same amount of backwash.
2: Worn DLFC button. The DLFC button regulated the flow rate regardless of pressure. When these get worn or the rubber button hardens, they regulate less... allowing too much water to go to the drain.
3: Broken top screen. Assuming you have low iron and a side port fill plug, these units can have a top screen. If the DLFC is flowing too high, the screen will prevent media loss... for a while. The top screens that are commonly used are not designed to hold back media, they will fail.

Hope this helps.

Well, you nailed it! I removed the DLFC button on the back of the unit is in line with the drain port (marked 7gpm on the outside) and it was rock-hard. There was not a top screen on the tank, so this excess flow was probably responsible for shooting the fresh media out of the drain during backwash.

Bannerman, I was incorrect when I told you that the backwash plug had a 2 on it. I was referring to the Torx plug that is in the same spot as the one that covers up the backflow orifice/check valve on my softener head. It has a 2 on it and I assumed that this housed the DLFC button on the neutralizer. Turns out that this is just a plug with nothing behind it. The DLFC button is in the back in line with the drain port.

 

[ditttohead]

Very likely a problem. The DLFC needs to flex to close off water flow at higher water pressures. Glad my 30 years of field work could help you.

 

[gargodude]

This one sure wasn't doing that. It explains a lot. Well, now I have a spare neutralizer tank at least. You never know when you might need one. Thanks for all of your help.

 

[gargodude]

One more question ( I hope). Should I set my calendar override at 0 and let the unit decide when to regen or something else? We are almost always here and rarely leave for more than a day.

 

[ditttohead]

Set the water softener override to 30 or so days, this way it will regenerate occasionally should you go on vacation for a few weeks keeping the system clean.

 

[gargodude]

OK, got my Hach 5B kit today and re-tested the water. I had tested it last week with the Hach 27452-50 test strips and got 7gr. at the well, 15 after the neutralizer and 0-1.5 after the softener. The tests were checked twice after running the water at the closest downstream faucet for several minutes before each. With the 5B kit, I got slightly different results but trust them more since I read that this kit is more accurate. Today, it was 5gr. at the well, 9 after the neutralizer and 0 after the softener (In fact, the water turned violet as soon as I added the reagent, then blue after 1 drop of the titrant solution).

The question is, shall I keep Bannerman's recommended settings of capacity=30, hardness=15 and salt dial at 9 or should I dial it back a bit? Also, since the settings were (and might be again) changed since the last regen, should I do one (or two) manual regens after the final settings are made to get everything on track?

 

[Reach4]

The question is, shall I keep Bannerman's recommended settings of capacity=30, hardness=15 and salt dial at 9 or should I dial it back a bit? Also, since the settings were (and might be again) changed since the last regen, should I do one (or two) manual regens after the final settings are made to get everything on track?

I think you would change hardness to 10, and no other changes would be needed. No extra regeneration needed for this change, I am pretty sure.

 

[ditttohead]

Too many variable to say for sure but keep this in mind. You may get a reading of 9 grains while the water is running but for fun, try testing the water immediately out of the calcite tank after it has been sitting for 12 hours. You may get a wildly high hardness reading. You will typically miss these "slugs" of hardness during testing. IMHO, keep it at 15.

 

[gargodude]

That's worth a try.

 

[gargodude]

So, what's typical when setting up a new system, setting the softener at the actual measured hardness, or a few grains above? My measured hardness is 9gr. after the neutralizer using the Hach 5B kit.

 

[Bannerman]

at the actual measured hardness, or a few grains above?

See Ditttohead's post #17 where he said:

IMHO, keep it at 15.