Softener drain shooting out what I assume is carbon from the filter

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Pushc5

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So I got two cycles going on the filter fine, drained nice and clear. Open up the softener to service mode, go to run a cycle and it starts sucking out black what I assume is carbon. Is it something wrong with my hookup? It burped the first time it started so I figured maybe it disturbed the media in the first tank and was sucking some of that down, ideas? At my wits end, I just can't imagine it should be this hard.

The setup. Yes, it's heinous.

https://imgur.com/a/NAGqSsL
 

ditttohead

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Carbon... are we talking simply black/grey water or are we talking about chunks of carbon about the size of very large sand?
 

Pushc5

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Carbon... are we talking simply black/grey water or are we talking about chunks of carbon about the size of very large sand?
Looks like grey water I just assumed it was carbon. Only happens during the backwash phase, rapid rinse drains clear. I have output on bypass so it doesn’t go out to the fixtures. Also have carbon filter bypassed as well
 

Pushc5

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Put them in service and run them through some more cleaning cycles.
Both are in service, and I don't have any soft water, as determined by "sticky hands". When I very first hooked it up, I was getting the slick water. Not sure why I'm not now. Settings on the softener:

df: gal
vt: df1b
ct: fd
nt: 1
c: 48
h: 20
rs: sf
sf: 20
do: 15
rt: 0200
bw: 10
bd: 60
rr: 10
bf: 8
fm: p07
 

Pushc5

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I will note that after running a full regen last night that the brine was almost to the safety shutoff (if it didn't hit it). I had it at bf: 10 so I adjusted it down to 8. Using c100e resin.
 

Bannerman

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After searching your previous threads to determine your softener size, I now see it is a 1.5 ft3 system.

The 48K Capacity setting above is incorrect. The Capacity setting is not the total capacity of the resin but is a variable dictated by the amount of salt used for regeneration.

Suggest reprogramming the Capacity setting to 36,000 grains. That capacity will require 12 lbs salt each regeneration cycle which is your current salt setting, assuming your softener is equipped with a 0.5 gpm BLFC. The Brine Line Flow Control flow rate is typically indicated on a label located nearby to the brine line connection on the control valve.

Now that the resin's total capacity has been exhausted, it will need to be restored by performing a 1X manual regeneration using 30 lbs salt. As each gallon water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3 lbs salt, 10 gallons water will be required in the brine tank. Assuming your brine tank will not hold 10 gallons + salt, you may perform 2 manual regenerations back-to-back. As your brine tank is currently configured for 4 gallons fill, one additional gallon may be added with a bucket prior to each manual regeneration. After adding the additional water, wait approx 1-hour to allow sufficient opportunity for additional salt to dissolve prior to initiating each regeneration cycle.

Here is a link to a resin capacity chart. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/resin-chart-jpg.53316/
 
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Pushc5

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Ok, so I took the heads off. The tanks were swapped! The softener valve was on the carbon and vice-a-versa. Got the tanks swapped around. I do have a .5 gpm BLFC.

Would having the softener as the first in line and sitting in bypass for a few days really cause the resin to be at capacity? The tanks have only been connected to water for ~week. I can run two regens on it though adding water.

Could you also explain C? I'm not quite sure I understand why I would set it at 36k vs 48k? Thanks!
 

Bannerman

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All any of us can go by is what you tell us.

This morning in post #5, you said both the softener and carbon filter were in-service but there now is no soft water even as there was soft water previously. You then detailed the current program settings for the softener which I commented on, in particular the 'C' setting.

Are you now saying the filter and softener tanks were swapped so the carbon media was being regenerated with salt brine? If so, I then anticipate the softener resin has not been regenerated but has been only backwashed. Since the carbon backwash rate will be higher than needed for softener resin, backwashing with the head for the carbon will cause the resin to be back washed too aggressively which may have resulted in the loss of some of the resin to drain, particularly if no upper screen is installed in the resin tank.

Although the heads may have been installed on the incorrect tanks, as soft water was present earlier on but is not now, it appears the resin's softening capacity has been totally depleted. When resin has been exhausted, it is advisable to regenerate with the maximum salt amount to restore the total capacity before regular ongoing use.

Even with installing the correct control valve for the softener media, the 'C' setting programmed at 48 is incorrect for 1.5 ft3 of softener resin.

Follow down the Resin Volume column at the left of the linked chart until you reach 1.5 ft3. Scanning across right will show various usable capacities that will be regenerated when using the specific amount of salt shown at the top of each column. As the salt amounts are shown in pounds per cubic foot of resin, then for your 1.5 ft3 softener, 8 lb/ft3 will be 12 lbs salt to regenerate 36,000 grains capacity.

The BLFC will control the fill rate to the brine tank. The BF setting is the number of minutes water is to enter the brine tank. As mentioned, each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt. You confirmed your BLFC flow rate is 0.5 gpm, so 0.5 X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons X 3 lbs/gal = 12 lbs salt to be dissolved each regeneration cycle.

At the bottom of each salt setting column is an indication of Hardness Reduction Efficiency which is often referred to as salt efficiency in grains per lb of salt Also indicated is a hardness leakage factor which is directly related to water quality for each salt amount.

Water treatment usually involves compromise. A higher efficiency setting will reduce salt consumption, but water quality will also decline and regeneration will be more frequent due to the lower amount of capacity to be used between regenerations. An 8 lb/ft3 setting is most recommended as it will usually provide the best balance of salt efficiency, capacity and water quality.
 
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Pushc5

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All any of us can go by is what you tell us.

This morning in post #5, you said both the softener and carbon filter were in-service but there now is no soft water even as there was soft water previously. You then detailed the current program settings for the softener which I commented on, in particular the 'C' setting.

Are you now saying the filter and softener tanks were swapped so the carbon media was being regenerated with salt brine? If so, I then anticipate the softener resin has not been regenerated but has been only backwashed. Since the carbon backwash rate will be higher than needed for softener resin, backwashing with the head for the carbon will cause the resin to be back washed too aggressively which may have resulted in the loss of some of the resin to drain, particularly if no upper screen is installed in the resin tank.

Although the heads may have been installed on the incorrect tanks, as soft water was present earlier on but is not now, it appears the resin's softening capacity has been totally depleted. When resin has been exhausted, it is advisable to regenerate with the maximum salt amount to restore the total capacity before regular ongoing use.

Even with installing the correct control valve for the softener media, the 'C' setting programmed at 48 is incorrect for 1.5 ft3 of softener resin.

Follow down the Resin Volume column at the left of the linked chart until you reach 1.5 ft3. Scanning across right will show various usable capacities that will be regenerated when using the specific amount of salt shown at the top of each column. As the salt amounts are shown in pounds per cubic foot of resin, then for your 1.5 ft3 softener, 8 lb/ft3 will be 12 lbs salt to regenerate 36,000 grains capacity.

The BLFC will control the fill rate to the brine tank. The BF setting is the number of minutes water is to enter the brine tank. As mentioned, each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt. You confirmed your BLFC flow rate is 0.5 gpm, so 0.5 X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons X 3 lbs/gal = 12 lbs salt to be dissolved each regeneration cycle.

At the bottom of each salt setting column is an indication of Hardness Reduction Efficiency which is often referred to as salt efficiency in grains per lb of salt Also indicated is a hardness leakage factor which is directly related to water quality for each salt amount.

Water treatment usually involves compromise. A higher efficiency setting will reduce salt consumption, but water quality will also decline and regeneration will be more frequent due to the lower amount of capacity to be used between regenerations. An 8 lb/ft3 setting is most recommended as it will usually provide the best balance of salt efficiency, capacity and water quality.

Yea so my posts were a little all over because I was doing troubleshooting and trying to make sense of it.

Here is where I’m at right now:
  • swapped the heads to the proper tanks (it looked like resin was about 2/3 or more up the tank)
  • Ran a cycle on the carbon
  • Ran TWO full cycles on the softener as directed waiting two hours between regens
Currently the water is sometimes turning blue right away and sometimes takes 2-3 drops to turn blue. Looked closely at the water and notice there are still fine particles in there. I’m running another bw and rr on the softener to hopefully clear those out. At the time of testing water did not feel slick nor did it pass the “slimy hand” test but wasn’t sure if that was just a result of dry hands due to frequent COVID washing. Thanks for your help, it’s very appreciated.
 

Bannerman

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The softener media filled to 2/3 of the tank height is normal as the empty space above (freeboard) will be needed during the backwash segment of regeneration. The media will be lifted, expanded and redistributed (reclassified) within the tank which will require all of that empty space. You did not confirm there is an upper screen installed, but if so, that likely prevented excessive resin loss while backwash occured at the too high flow rate.

As you installed and will be maintaining the softener yourself, suggest obtaining a Fleck 5b Total Hardness test kit to periodically quantify both the raw water hardness and also the hardness after the softener. 'Feel' is not a reliable method as you will soon become accustomed to softened water as it will become the new normal. If the hardness programmed is lower than actually present in the raw water, then softener capacity will be consumed faster than anticipated.

While the programmed Capacity was the most significant setting to be modified due to the 12 lb salt setting, there are a few other settings which may now be reprogrammed without the need for further manual regeneration cycles.

RS= SF & SF = 20. These settings set reserve capacity at 20% of programmed capacity. One day capacity is sufficient for Reserve so with 36K grains Capacity programmed, 7,200 grains reserve may be excessive. Suggest setting RS = rc. RC will allow you to programm a specific number of gallons for Reserve based on 1-day water consumption. If you don't know your family's daily consumption, one method to estimate is to anticipate between 50 to 75 gallons usage per person X # of persons. 60 gallons PP is often chosen. Since the reserve quantity will be subtracted from the total capacity to be regenerated, the remaining gallons available will increase when the reserve quantity is decreased.

DO = 15. This will cause a regeneration to be performed 15 days after the previous if water consumption has not caused a regeneration cycle to be performed within that time. If your water does not contain iron or excessive sediment, the DO setting may be increased to a maximum of 30 days.

BW = 10. The Backwash segment of regeneration will be 10 minutes duration. If the incoming water does not contain sediment, a 6 minute BW will be usually sufficient. BW and Rapid Rinse will flow at the DLFC flow rate to drain, which for your 10" diameter tank, will be typically 2.4 gpm. Reducing these time settings when possible, will reduce water used for regeneration which will also impact the amount of discharge to be treated.

RR = 10. Rapid Rinse will repack the resin bed near the end of the regeneration cycle. This is not a critical cycle as service water flowing to fixtures will flow down through the resin which will also further pack the resin bed. Reducing the setting to 5 minutes should be sufficient.
 
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Pushc5

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The softener media filled to 2/3 of the tank height is normal as the empty space above (freeboard) will be needed during the backwash segment of regeneration. The media will be lifted, expanded and redistributed (reclassified) within the tank which will require all of that empty space. You did not confirm there is an upper screen installed, but if so, that likely prevented excessive resin loss while backwash occured at the too high flow rate.

As you installed and will be maintaining the softener yourself, suggest obtaining a Fleck 5b Total Hardness test kit to periodically quantify both the raw water hardness and also the hardness after the softener. 'Feel' is not a reliable method as you will soon become accustomed to softened water as it will become the new normal. If the hardness programmed is lower than actually present in the raw water, then softener capacity will be consumed faster than anticipated.

While the programmed Capacity was the most significant setting to be modified due to the 12 lb salt setting, there are a few other settings which may now be reprogrammed without the need for further manual regeneration cycles.

RS= SF & SF = 20. These settings set reserve capacity at 20% of programmed capacity. One day capacity is sufficient for Reserve so with 36K grains Capacity programmed, 7,200 grains reserve may be excessive. Suggest setting RS = rc. RC will allow you to programm a specific number of gallons for Reserve based on 1-day water consumption. If you don't know your family's daily consumption, one method to estimate is to anticipate between 50 to 75 gallons usage per person X # of persons. 60 gallons PP is often chosen. Since the reserve quantity will be subtracted from the total capacity to be regenerated, the remaining gallons available will increase when the reserve quantity is decreased.

DO = 15. This will cause a regeneration to be performed 15 days after the previous if water consumption has not caused a regeneration cycle to be performed within that time. If your water does not contain iron or excessive sediment, the DO setting may be increased to a maximum of 30 days.

BW = 10. The Backwash segment of regeneration will be 10 minutes duration. If the incoming water does not contain sediment, a 6 minute BW will be usually sufficient. BW and Rapid Rinse will flow at the DLFC flow rate to drain, which for your 10" diameter tank, will be typically 2.4 gpm. Reducing these time settings when possible, will reduce water used for regeneration which will also impact the amount of discharge to be treated.

RR = 10. Rapid Rinse will repack the resin bed near the end of the regeneration cycle. This is not a critical cycle as service water flowing to fixtures will flow down through the resin which will also further pack the resin bed. Reducing the setting to 5 minutes should be sufficient.

I agree that "slimy" hands is something you could get used to, but I guess I just didn't expect it to be that fast! I noticed it the first time I turned both systems on, and nothing has really compared since then. I just wanted to make sure that having the softener head do the backwash on the carbon filter didn't clog something up on the softener head which would decrease performance. The brine drains and refills properly, so that much I know! Being new to softeners I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I looked past! I tested the hardness today with the 5b and as soon as I added the powder it immediately turned blue, no drops needed.

I didn't see any sort of screen, I saw the resin about 2/3 up the tank, and then the upper top basket that attaches to the head. I didn't see anything else.

I have a hach 5b and tested the water at 15-17 gpg prior to installing anything. I have set the softener to 20 to account for any other changes as our municipality grabs water from several different wells which can change.

I already changed the RC to 200 gallons which will be on the high side of normal for us given our water usage, but thanks for the clarification!

DO of 15, since we are municipal I'll probably bump that up as recommended. I did test iron for fun and it read 0.

Will update the BW and RR setting!

Again thanks for your help and patience!
 

Reach4

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I agree that "slimy" hands is something you could get used to, but I guess I just didn't expect it to be that fast! I noticed it the first time I turned both systems on, and nothing has really compared since then.
Use less soap.

I didn't see any sort of screen, I saw the resin about 2/3 up the tank, and then the upper top basket that attaches to the head. I didn't see anything else.
Top screen, top basket, distributor top... same thing.

Congratulations on getting this working.
 

Bannerman

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wanted to make sure that having the softener head do the backwash on the carbon filter didn't clog something up on the softener head which would decrease performance.
Not impossible but unlikely, especially as the backwash flow rate for softener resin will be significantly less than required for carbon. With the lower drain flow rate configured for the softener's control valve, the carbon will not have lifted as high during backwash as will normally occur with carbon.

Assuming both valves were equipped with upper baskets, any carbon that you observed flowing from the softener valve drain when installed on the carbon tank, will be carbon fines and dust particles small enough to pass through the upper basket. Now with the correct valve installed on the carbon tank, the backwash rate should be higher so there may be additional carbon fines and dust particles eliminated during the next few backwash cycles.

Broken, small and worn softener resin granules will also be eliminated during ongoing backwashing, which is one further reason why the total 48,000 grains capacity in the 1.5 ft3 originally installed, will not be usable in practice.
 
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