Softener causing low water pressure?

[Chefencore]

In my restaurant, we’ve had trouble flushing the toilets, not enough pressure to get anything to go down, sometimes to the point that the valve won’t close and the urinal will overflow. When I bypass the softener it solves the problem. I’ve had a tech come and inspect the softener, he says pressure is fine on both ends.
Prior to that, we had a plumber come to take a look. He suggested we call someone to take a look at the softener- he said something about pellets lodged somewhere?
The softener system is just over 2 years old. Any suggestions?

 

[Reach4]

See how much the flow improves when the softener is in bypass.

Do you have a cartridge filter? Look hard. A clogged filter is more likely than a clogged softener.

A pressure gauge is cheap and will help quantify the pressure drop.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Chefencore]

When I bypass the softener, it completely solves the problem. But it makes my dishes and glassware look terrible.
Where would I find a filter? I have a large cylinder and a salt reservoir.

 

[Bannerman]

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/sudden-loss-of-water-pressure.80099/

 

[Chefencore]

I saw that thread, but I don’t know of the chlorine content in the water. And it’s not sporadic. It’s all the time.

 

[Bannerman]

Are you saying the restriction existed since the softener was installed?

If your water supply is from a municipal source (vs a private well), it will be chlorinated.

Damaged resin will not necessarily present a sporadic problem, but is most apparent as the flow rate increases. In a home, water is often drawn at a fairly low flow rate but in your restaurant, the flow rate is likely at a higher rate on a consistent basis.

You may wish to consider a backwashing carbon system to remove the chlorine before the softener. At the very least, obtain 10% crosslink resin which will better withstand continuous chlorine exposure compared to standard 8% (or lower) resin.

 

[Chefencore]

The restriction started a few months ago. The softener was installed 2 years ago, when the restaurant was built.

 

[Bannerman]

You have already identified that bypassing the softener remedies the flow issue, so the problem obviously is located between the valves that control flow through the softener. Unless a separate filter is also bypassed when bypassing the softener, the issue is not a separate filter.

The tech that checked the pressure before and after the softener, should have tested while a regular amount of water was being drawn through the softener. If water is not being drawn, the static pressure on both sides of the softener will be identical since even a small amount is able to flow through the softener which will equalize the pressure.

As you mention the toilets will not flush wastes away, does this mean your restaurant is equipped with tankless toilets which utilize flushometer valves to supply a sudden large volume of water for every flush?

 

[Chefencore]

I wasn’t present when the softener was checked. I would have had all the water running, dish machine filling, toilets flushing.
Toilets- you are correct. No tanks.
There are no filters that I am aware of (not here, at least).
There is also a humming/vibration noise that goes along with the softener. It stops when bypassed.
So what you are telling me is that there is most likely something lodged in the piping leading to/coming from the softener? That narrows it down to about 4 feet of pipe. That’s the good news. Now how do I get whatever it is out? I’ll check when I get back to work if there’s a clean out on any or the valves.

 

[Chefencore]

So there’s no clean out on the valves. I’ve had to bypass the softener for the day because there’s not enough pressure to close the diaphragms on the toilets and they won’t flush. Now the only urinal is overflowing on almost every flush. Related?

 

[Bannerman]

Now the only urinal is overflowing on almost every flush.

This is occuring while the softener is bypassed?

 

[Bannerman]

So what you are telling me is that there is most likely something lodged in the piping leading to/coming from the softener?

While I continue to suspect the resin, a mechanical obstruction is a possibility. Are the valves prior to the softener ''ball" valves or are there globe or gate valves inplace? There is little likelihood something could become dislodged from a ball valve whereas with a gate valve, the gate could become disconnected from the valve stem. With globe valves, the washer or seat could become dislodged and become trapped downstream.

You haven't stated your softener's control valve brand and model. With using flushometer valves on the toilets and urinal, I expect your softener will be commercial unit, capable of higher flow rates compared to residential models. Perhaps there may be models with known issues and so if we know which one, a knowledgeable forum participant may be able to offer appropriate advice. Maybe post some photos of the control valve from all sides.

 

[Reach4]

So there’s no clean out on the valves. I’ve had to bypass the softener for the day because there’s not enough pressure to close the diaphragms on the toilets and they won’t flush. Now the only urinal is overflowing on almost every flush. Related?

I would post that question into the plumbing forum. I would be surprised if its normal Flushometer valves to keep running, just because the water pressure is low. But I don't know that. I am often surprised.

I also find it odd that that the drain cannot keep up, so I think you have a third problem-- slow drain.

 

[Bannerman]

A flushometer type valve does require adequate pressure to operate properly so I would not be surprised. With the feedline often being 1.25" or larger, the amount of incoming water will often exceed a urinal's restricted drain rate but will not usually overflow due to the short flush duration. If the flow rate is however impared by a restriction in the feedline to prevent the flush valve from closing, I then expect the incoming flow rate would not exceed the urinal's drain rate.

If the urinal continues to run while the softener is bypassed, perhaps resin has escaped the softener and has become lodged in the flush valve, or the flush valve is simply worn and by coincidence, the cartridge requires replacement.

 

[Reach4]

1. What is the diameter of the softener tank(s)? If the flushometer is drawing 25 gpm, that could be a problem putting the water through a 9 inch diameter softener tank.
2. As a workaround/fix, I am thinking about a spring-loaded check valve around the softener. I would like to locate one with an extra-strong spring so that the valve would only open if there was maybe a 5 psi differential. Then also have a pressure gauge on each side too.

 

[Chefencore]

This is occuring while the softener is bypassed?

Yes

You haven't stated your softener's control valve brand and model. With using flushometer valves on the toilets and urinal, I expect your softener will be commercial unit, capable of higher flow rates compared to residential models. Perhaps there may be models with known issues and so if we know which one, a knowledgeable forum participant may be able to offer appropriate advice. Maybe post some photos of the control valve from all sides

I've included pictures, there is no brand on it. All ball valves.

A flushometer type valve does require adequate pressure to operate properly so I would not be surprised. With the feedline often being 1.25" or larger, the amount of incoming water will often exceed a urinal's restricted drain rate but will not usually overflow due to the short flush duration. If the flow rate is however impared by a restriction in the feedline to prevent the flush valve from closing, I then expect the incoming flow rate would not exceed the urinal's drain rate.

If the urinal continues to run while the softener is bypassed, perhaps resin has escaped the softener and has become lodged in the flush valve, or the flush valve is simply worn and by coincidence, the cartridge requires replacement.

The urinal does seem to be running longer, but I could be wrong. Everything is screwy these days.

 

[Bannerman]

The control valve is a Fleck 5000 with SXT controller.

The DLFC (Drain Line Flow Control) rate of 2.4 GPM stated on the underside label, signifies a 10" diameter tank, typically containing 1.5 cuft or less resin. While a Fleck 5000 will support up 1.25" plumbing and 27 gpm (@ 25 psi pressure drop) I am surprised with only 1.5 cuft resin as that would support a softening service flow rate up to ~12 gpm (IIRC). While a softener valve may be capable of a higher flow rate, if the SFR (service flow rate) of the resin is exceeded, then hardness leakage will occur through the softener. While that would be OK on occasion, the usual flow rate requirement should rightly be taken into account when initially sizing a softener.

With your very clean, neat and high-quality installation, I continue to suspect the flow issue is caused by damaged resin. The urinal problem seems to be coincidental to the softener problem.

http://daytonwatersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/5000-sxt-spec-sheet-42960.pdf

 

[Reach4]

What is that brass casting with the gauge?

 

[Bannerman]

In re-examining your photos, is the softener feed and return lines shown on the right and bottom of photo 2C1989...... ? If so, the main water line appears to be a larger diameter than the lines connecting the softener as there appear to be reducers in-place below the isolation/bypass valves.

 

[Ryan Symons]

A 10" softener is wayyyy undersized for even 1 flushometer! Reducing the plumbing to 3/4" is also wrong. The company that installed that knows nothing about sizing commercial equipment. I'm surprised that the toilets have ever worked properly. You have two options....get a properly sized softener installed if you have the room or install a check valve and surge tank (pressure tank) after the softener. Flushometer toilets require high flow not high volume so the 2nd method has a good chance of working but is not a guarantee. I have seen it be successful.