Smoke Test: no smoke, but no go...

[SteveMitty79]

Can you try starting with commercial power with the pump in water?

Negative. We are off grid. Solar and generators.

 

[DonL]

Negative. We are off grid. Solar and generators.

That is way cool.

Chicken eggs too ?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[SteveMitty79]

That is way cool.

Chicken eggs too ?

Chickens, turkeys, rabbits, guineas, muskovies, alpine goats, bees, etc.

I had to fix the backhoe and am whooped. I will reinstall the capacitor and see if a bigger genny might be the solution, unless someone else has any ideas aside from starting again from scratch. While I am not opposed to admitting a bad choice, if there is a chance I can get this to work, I am all for it.

 

[DonL]

I would think a 10HP gen would run a 2HP motor with no problem.

The pump motor is 1.5 kw. If it is a BACO 4SH ?

The original cap should work, It is made for that motor not a Franklin. I would double check the pump motor connections. You could have 2 wires swapped.

Good Luck.

 

[Reach4]

That schematic says that the capacitor is not a start cap but is a permanent run capacitor. Thus an electrolytic start cap would not work for long. The capacitor is shown active at all times. I am sorry to say that I had wrongly presumed that one of those was a capacitor timing device.

But what the heck is the device in the box with black, brown, blue wires? Is that an on-off switch?

Checking the wiring again does make sense.

 

[DonL]

That schematic says that the capacitor is not a start cap but is a permanent run capacitor. Thus an electrolytic start cap would not work for long. The capacitor is shown active at all times. I am sorry to say that I had wrongly presumed that one of those was a capacitor timing device.

But what the heck is the device in the box with black, brown, blue wires? Is that an on-off switch?

Checking the wiring again does make sense.

Yep it looks wired like a run, And that is why there is no relay.

Looks like that is a on/off switch and safety breaker. Lets him use it manually.

I too was confused in the beginning, when I seen a Flotec drawing at first.

The wiring color is not the same on all brands either.

 

[SteveMitty79]

That schematic says that the capacitor is not a start cap but is a permanent run capacitor. Thus an electrolytic start cap would not work for long. The capacitor is shown active at all times. I am sorry to say that I had wrongly presumed that one of those was a capacitor timing device.

But what the heck is the device in the box with black, brown, blue wires? Is that an on-off switch?

Checking the wiring again does make sense.

Yeah, that's a cheapo double pole on/off switch. Both hots are on one end with the blue breaking off to power the capacitor. That's why you see the three colors. Afterward, only the black hot goes through the 20amp CB/OP.

I will recheck the wiring.

 

[SteveMitty79]

I would think a 10HP gen would run a 2HP motor with no problem.

The pump motor is 1.5 kw. If it is a BACO 4SH ?

The original cap should work, It is made for that motor not a Franklin. I would double check the pump motor connections. You could have 2 wires swapped.



Good Luck.

I rethought getting a bigger genny and figured mine was sufficient. I am yet to rewire the original capacitor but when I do, I will recheck the wiring. I believe I have it right according to the diagram.

Two hots through the switch, one through the CB, the other through the capcitor (3 legs), the last the ground straight through. I don't think it could be more simple.

 

[DonL]

Two hots through the switch, one through the CB, the other through the capcitor (3 legs), the last the ground straight through. I don't think it could be more simple.

Many times that is the problem, It looks to simple. Or the wiring diagram is wrong for what hardware you have.

I am sure you can figure it out, and learn a lot doing it. Then if it breaks you will be able to fix it.

 

[Reach4]

Here is my interpretation of relating the terminal strip to the schematic. The color of the letters would correspond to classic pump wire colors if my understanding is correct.

As a check, with power off and motor connected, I would expect resistance from C to M to be the lowest (about an ohm plus wire round trip). Resistance C to A would be higher, and resistance M to A would be the sum of the first two readings minus one wire round trip.

 

[SteveMitty79]

Not ignore posts. I will attend to them soon. I just wanted to post some tests I performed swapping wires.

Test O is labeled as such as I did not swap anything but wanted to check voltage across the wires. This configuration according to the diagram draws power but trips in about ten seconds.

Test 2, I swapped the power leg to the capacitor with the capacitor. I figured this was the safest swap as the both legs originate from the same hot. This configuration I tested for 3 minutes with no trip. It would draw a while (40 secs) and idle for about half that time (2o secs) like it was drawing and resetting. This occurred three times during the 3 minute duration. Each leg was showing constant voltage while drawing power, but increase when it idled.

I performed another test I will redo in the morning and post. It was simply swapping the capacitor with the other hot, I ran it only for two minutes as the voltages were less than I was comfortable with. It did draw power the entire time. That is forthcoming in the AM.

All told, no water.

 

[SteveMitty79]

Here is my interpretation of relating the terminal strip to the schematic. The color of the letters would correspond to classic pump wire colors if my understanding is correct. View attachment 30294 As a check, with power off and motor connected, I would expect resistance from C to M to be the lowest (about an ohm plus wire round trip). Resistance C to A would be higher, and resistance M to A would be the sum of the first two readings minus one wire round trip.

I think I swapped out the wires just like that in the second test above. Capacitor with power. Runs but no water.

 

[DonL]

Did You measure the current on the pump lines to see if the motor is working ?

I would measure the voltage across the lines, Not from ground. The voltage difference from Black and the other two wires is what matters.

Good Luck.

 

[SteveMitty79]

Did You measure the current on the pump lines to see if the motor is working ?

I would measure the voltage across the lines, Not from ground. The voltage difference from Black and the other two wires is what matters.

In my first test, I measured the current in the diagram configuration that runs for about ten seconds then trips.
The current for L1, L2, and Cap respectively is 28, 27, and 5.
The voltage across L1 and L2 is seen in the first three pics. It is 172-173VAC
The voltage across L1 and Cap is seen in the last. It is 46VAC.

In my second test, I substituted L2 with Cap, therefore (source wire to motor wire) L1:L1, L2:Cap, Cap:L2, Grd:Grd. This configuration ran for three minutes in the previous test and did not trip. In that test, it drew on the genny and then idled. This cycle ran several times over several minutes.

The current for L1, Cap:L2, and L2:Cap respectively is 22, 4, and 22.
The voltage across L1 and L2:Cap is seen in the first three pics. It is 196-198VAC
The voltage across L1 and Cap:L2 is seen in the last. It is 42VAC.

 

[DonL]

The current for L1, L2, and Cap respectively is 28, 27, and 5.

That does not add up. Is there current on the ground ?

It sounds like the motor never spins up and the locked rotor protection with the 10 second reset cycles.

That cap could be bad, If it is the original, It had a old date code. I would expect that reading to be higher.

It is hard to see from here. The current is way to high. The breaker is 20 Amp.

 

[SteveMitty79]

That does not add up. Is there current on the ground ?

It sounds like the motor never spins up and the locked rotor protection with the 10 second reset cycles.

That cap could be bad, If it is the original, It had a old date code. I would expect that reading to be higher.

It is hard to see from here. The current is way to high. The breaker is 20 Amp.

No current on the ground in either setup. Read 0 as I expected but it was worth verifying.

It could be the Cap is bad since in either case it's only pushing 4 to 5 amps. Should it be pushing 100% like the hots or reduced since it's a run Cap?

 

[Reach4]

It could be the Cap is bad since in either case it's only pushing 4 to 5 amps. Should it be pushing 100% like the hots or reduced since it's a run Cap?

I think the winding with the cap should have much less current than the main winding. I am not saying that 4 or 5 amps is normal, but it does not seem out of line to me considering. I think you need to try this with a bigger power source. This presumes that the voltage at the generator has dropped down and the drop is not in some long wires from the generator to the control box.

 

[SteveMitty79]

I think the winding with the cap should have much less current than the main winding. I am not saying that 4 or 5 amps is normal, but it does not seem out of line to me considering. I think you need to try this with a bigger power source. This presumes that the voltage at the generator has dropped down and the drop is not in some long wires from the generator to the control box.

I just thought the current would be more than 20%.

I have to check a couple of rental places close by for a bigger genny. 10 KW should be fine for testing. In the mean time, I'll look to acquire another Cap of the same rating in case the one I have is defective for some reason. Worst case, I have two.

 

[Reach4]

You can use an ohmmeter to test a cap in a qualitative way. Isolate the cap (at least one of the terminals). Short out the cap momentarily. Measure resistance. Expect it to kick low and then rise toward infinite ohms. Reverse the leads. Get a new kick and a rise toward infinity.

A 68 uF capacitor will have about 39 ohms of reactance at 60 Hz. At 180 volts across the cap, you would expect to get about 4.6 amps. So what should you expect when you have the cap in series with the winding? It is not that simple. If the winding were resistive, you would get less current. If the winding was pure inductive within limits, you would get an increase in the current, because inductance cancels out capacitance. But the impedance of the winding is complex -- neither purely inductive nor resistive. Your observed amps seems within the general range of what I would expect.

 

[DonL]

Are you running that generator at 3600 RPM ?

Those voltage measurements do seem low for some reason.