Slow start systems for 1 1/2 hp pump

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Rockwind1

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I have a Goulds 1.5hp 106525 submersible using a franklin switch box (not sure of model number but its for 1/1.5hp 220v max amp 8/11.5)

well is 442 ft, pump is set at 411', water level is 320' as of jan 30, 2019.

Using a 80 ish gallon pressure tank and a 30-50 pressure switch.



Does the standard franklin switch box act as a slow start as well, for the pump. i just put this pump in 2 years ago for the cost of 4500 and I want to treat it as nicely as possible.

I picked up a 2500 gallon storage tank and i was going to get a jet pump,, but I called the local well service company,, and even after I got the storage tank,, he still quoted me around 5k+ to put in the jet pump, new controls and such. Does that seem high? It does to me.
 

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The Kingsbury thrust bearing in a submersible motor is somewhat like the engine in your car. It doesn't get any lubrication until the lub starts pumping through the system. The Kingsbury has a film of water between the wearable surfaces. This makes it completely frictionless and will last forever. However, it doesn't get the hydroplane water effect until it is up to at least 50% speed. The longer time it takes to get to 50% speed, the more wear on the bearing. So, some soft starters are very hard on submersible motors. It still needs to get the submersible motor up to 50% speed in less than 1 second. Only from 50% speed to 100% speed can you slow start the rest of the way. Not all soft starters will do that.

The best is a reduced voltage soft start. This only reduces the torque, not the rate of speed. All you need is to use the longest length of wire the charts say will work for that size motor. On a 1.5HP motor, if you use 190' of #14 wire or 310' of #12, the reduced voltage on start up will reduce the torque by 36% and not effect the lubrication of the thrust bearing. Not over sizing, and maybe lapping a few extra feet to make the wire max length is all you need to do to soft start a submersible motor.

Making the motor last then comes down to not letting it cycle itself to death, as the number of starts is usually the determining factor on how long a pump will last. Using a cistern as you are thinking, is probably the least amount of cycles you can do to protect your pump. However, cisterns require an extra pump system and room to install it, as well as subject the water to the air and light which will require some measures to maintain the water quality. For these reasons most people only use cisterns when their well will not produce enough flow for house use. But if you want a cistern, you already have the tank, the pump and controls will cost you another 1200-1500 bucks if you do it yourself. I will post a drawing of such a system.

Water from a well, when there is sufficient quantity, can many times be very clean and need little to no maintenance. With a Cycle Stop Valve and a medium size pressure tank, like say 44 gallons, the number of cycles will be reduced enough the well pump should last for many decades. Probably won't be much difference in pump life compared to using a cistern.

LOW YIELD WELL_ CENTRIFUGAL_PK1A.jpg


LOW YIELD WELL_SUB_PK1A.jpg
 

Rockwind1

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The Kingsbury thrust bearing in a submersible motor is somewhat like the engine in your car. It doesn't get any lubrication until the lub starts pumping through the system. The Kingsbury has a film of water between the wearable surfaces. This makes it completely frictionless and will last forever. However, it doesn't get the hydroplane water effect until it is up to at least 50% speed. The longer time it takes to get to 50% speed, the more wear on the bearing. So, some soft starters are very hard on submersible motors. It still needs to get the submersible motor up to 50% speed in less than 1 second. Only from 50% speed to 100% speed can you slow start the rest of the way. Not all soft starters will do that.

The best is a reduced voltage soft start. This only reduces the torque, not the rate of speed. All you need is to use the longest length of wire the charts say will work for that size motor. On a 1.5HP motor, if you use 190' of #14 wire or 310' of #12, the reduced voltage on start up will reduce the torque by 36% and not effect the lubrication of the thrust bearing. Not over sizing, and maybe lapping a few extra feet to make the wire max length is all you need to do to soft start a submersible motor.

Making the motor last then comes down to not letting it cycle itself to death, as the number of starts is usually the determining factor on how long a pump will last. Using a cistern as you are thinking, is probably the least amount of cycles you can do to protect your pump. However, cisterns require an extra pump system and room to install it, as well as subject the water to the air and light which will require some measures to maintain the water quality. For these reasons most people only use cisterns when their well will not produce enough flow for house use. But if you want a cistern, you already have the tank, the pump and controls will cost you another 1200-1500 bucks if you do it yourself. I will post a drawing of such a system.

Water from a well, when there is sufficient quantity, can many times be very clean and need little to no maintenance. With a Cycle Stop Valve and a medium size pressure tank, like say 44 gallons, the number of cycles will be reduced enough the well pump should last for many decades. Probably won't be much difference in pump life compared to using a cistern.







i did not know about the kingsbury thrust bearing. thanks.

i notice your diagram shows only 2 wires going to the pump,, mine has 4 wires in the sheath, i have not looked at it closely to see if all are being used.

also, what is a cycle sensor?

also, my storage tank has an opening at the bottom and one at the top like your drawing. i am in an elevation where we get down into the teens temp wise a few times a winter,, into the 20's at least 30 plus days. what is best way to protect against freezing,,,,, is it possible to have the submersible go straight into the bottom opening,, and then tee off that pipe to go to jet pump? as opposed to expose pipes to the air?

also,, it is quite a run, distance wise, from the well breaker up at the house to the pump house,, it has to be 300-400 ft. if i put in a jet pump that is 1 hp,, do i need some electronics to make sure both pumps don't run at the same time?
 

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i notice your diagram shows only 2 wires going to the pump,, mine has 4 wires in the sheath, i have not looked at it closely to see if all are being used.

also, what is a cycle sensor?

also, my storage tank has an opening at the bottom and one at the top like your drawing. i am in an elevation where we get down into the teens temp wise a few times a winter,, into the 20's at least 30 plus days. what is best way to protect against freezing,,,,, is it possible to have the submersible go straight into the bottom opening,, and then tee off that pipe to go to jet pump? as opposed to expose pipes to the air?

also,, it is quite a run, distance wise, from the well breaker up at the house to the pump house,, it has to be 300-400 ft. if i put in a jet pump that is 1 hp,, do i need some electronics to make sure both pumps don't run at the same time?
As i said most people who use cisterns do so because they have a low producing well. The Cycle Sensor detects when the pump is running dry and shuts off the pump to protect it. It works for well pumps as well as when the cistern gets pumped dry. A lower float switch will work in the cistern, but not the well. If you are not concerned that the well will be pumped dry the Cycle Sensor is something you can do without.

 

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The diagram shows a Cycle Sensor and a 2 wire submersible in the cistern. You can also use a 4 wire submersible with a control box with or without the Cycle Sensor.

The well pump is controlled by the float switch in the cistern. The cistern pump is controlled by a pressure switch. You can run large enough wires to power both of them at the same time.
 

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Freezing is another issue. I know people who use a submersible in the cistern so it will not freeze. They set the flow switch for the well pump at a lower level, so there is room in the top of the cistern for the PK1A kit with a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank. You still have the issue of getting the pipe out of the cistern and into a deep enough trench to keep it from freezing, but this way everything else in in the cistern itself. Maybe a little heat tape on the pipe as it comes out of the cistern and goes underground. Or maybe the entire cistern could be buried deep enough so even the pipes coming out won't freeze.
 

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i notice your diagram shows only 2 wires going to the pump,, mine has 4 wires in the sheath, i have not looked at it closely to see if all are being used.
What you would have is 3 wires from the control box with likely color codes yellow black, red, green. Green is ground

I think the relay L1OUT and L2OUt wires in Valveman's diagram would be the two hot wires that go to the control box and connect to L1 and L2 of the pump control box.
 
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Rockwind1

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What you would have is 3 wires from the control box with likely color codes yellow black, red, green. Green is ground

I think the relay L1OUT and L2OUt wires in Valveman's diagram would be the two hot wires that go to the control box and connect to L1 and L2 of the pump control box.
the wire specced out in the receipt from when they put in the new pump was 10/4 so i was simply going off of that, i haven't looked at it yet to confirm.
 

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Freezing is another issue. I know people who use a submersible in the cistern so it will not freeze. They set the flow switch for the well pump at a lower level, so there is room in the top of the cistern for the PK1A kit with a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank. You still have the issue of getting the pipe out of the cistern and into a deep enough trench to keep it from freezing, but this way everything else in in the cistern itself. Maybe a little heat tape on the pipe as it comes out of the cistern and goes underground. Or maybe the entire cistern could be buried deep enough so even the pipes coming out won't freeze.
why couldn't i put the jet pump in the well house and bury the pipe from the bottom of the storage tank down like 12" and have it pop up in the pump house to the jet pump? is there a advantage to having a submersible in the tank vs a jet pump in the pump house?
 

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the wire specced out in the receipt from when they put in the new pump was 10/4 so i was simply going off of that, i haven't looked at it yet to confirm.
I should have looked at your setting depth before mentioning the wire size. With 420' of 10-4 cable you will get a pretty good soft start. However, had you bought 60' more and lapped it back and forth above ground or on the last joint of pipe you would have gotten the full benefit of the reduced voltage soft start with 480' of #10 wire.
 

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why couldn't i put the jet pump in the well house and bury the pipe from the bottom of the storage tank down like 12" and have it pop up in the pump house to the jet pump? is there a advantage to having a submersible in the tank vs a jet pump in the pump house?
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The part coming out of the tank before it goes underground can freeze. Bury the bottom of the tank and it would work. You would have the same problem with the pipe coming out of a submersible. Subs do more for the horse power. But either would work in a cistern.
 

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A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The part coming out of the tank before it goes underground can freeze. Bury the bottom of the tank and it would work. You would have the same problem with the pipe coming out of a submersible. Subs do more for the horse power. But either would work in a cistern.
right, but Is there anything wrong with setting it up like this?, Where the submersible fills up the storage tank from the bottom and the jet pump also gets its water supply from the bottom?
 

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Reach4

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I think you would need a lot more dirt or straw to keep that tank from freezing if chino valley gets hard freezes.

You would need a check valve into the jet pump I think.
 

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right, but Is there anything wrong with setting it up like this?, Where the submersible fills up the storage tank from the bottom and the jet pump also gets its water supply from the bottom?
I don't see why that wouldn't work. However, the problem with going into the bottom of a cistern is there is no air gap. If you have a hole in the pipe or the check on the pump fails it will drain the cistern back into the well. Like Reach says you need a check valve before the jet pump. I would add another check valve after the filter since there is no air gap.
 

Rockwind1

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I don't see why that wouldn't work. However, the problem with going into the bottom of a cistern is there is no air gap. If you have a hole in the pipe or the check on the pump fails it will drain the cistern back into the well. Like Reach says you need a check valve before the jet pump. I would add another check valve after the filter since there is no air gap.
even if there are 2 check valves in the pipe coming up the well?
 

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In most cases I would only use one check valve on the pump. Two down the well is OK, but I would still want one after the filter so any leak before that point would not drain the cistern. Technically a double check would be best to prevent the cistern water from going back down the well. And yes you will need another check valve before the jet pump.
 
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