slip joint reliability and ferncos

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by adrianmariano, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. adrianmariano

    adrianmariano New Member

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    So do the plastic tubular PVC drain pipes come in different gauges?
     
  2. markts30

    markts30 Commercial Plumber

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    As stated earlier in this thread "The vent pipe must open at or above the level of the water seal in the PTrap..."

    To quote the 1994 UPC (AZ code till July 1st 2007- then we adopt UPC 2006)
    Sect 1002.4 - "The vent pipe opening from a soil or waste pipe, except for water closets and similar fixtures, shall not be below the trap weir"
     
  3. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    Feb 6, 2007
    There's a subtle way to screw up

    You see comment 35 above? ( https://terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=66473&postcount=35 ). That's the right way to do it, but there's an easy way to do it wrong. This is off the subject, but it may be interesting.

    Just connect the trap and drain to the garbage disposal instead of the sink on the right. That horizontal pipe will now collect all the crud that's spit out by the garbage disposal, and it's hard as heck to keep it clean. As a result, the sink on the right will stink.

    It may be obvious to you guys. Or maybe not. The pros got it wrong in my house, and the inspector missed it too. Just thought I'd point it out. Unfortunately, I think the only ways to fix it would be to move the garbage disposal to the other sink (the wrong one, really), to move the whole house over a couple of feet, or to do an amazing plumbing job that I wouldn't care to post here. :eek:
     
  4. plumber1

    plumber1 Plumber

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    Less, you've got it wrong, that 10" part of the drain really doesn't collect a lot of crud. I've worked a lot of years and usually the only place that really is messy to deal with is after the trap all the way to the stack.
     
  5. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    So we're just imagining the smell? I think I see the problem here. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2007
  6. dubldare

    dubldare Plumber/Gasfitter

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  7. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Ice cubes work just as well as a garbage disposal cleaner, and they're normally closer to grab a handfull and send them down the disposal, I perfer rinsing them with bourbon before I do that... :D

    Rancher
     
  8. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    dubldare and Rancher,
    Read it again. You're cleaning the wrong drain. That's not the one that stinks.

    What happens is that a little waste from the garbage disposal backs up in that pipe. And why shouldn't it? It's horizontal. Then a little solid is left behind. Every time you use the garbage disposal. And it rots. And dries out enough to stick in there.

    You can control it by running water through BOTH sinks every time you use the garbage disposal. And we sometimes run bleach through there, etc. But you shouldn't have to do that to use a garbage disposal.

    We know how to control it. The point is that we wouldn't have to if it had been installed according to Terry's drawing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2007
  9. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    OK, maybe this will help. Here are pictures of the right and wrong way.
     

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  10. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Only way that "wrong" picture would accumulate debri is only if someone that doesn't know what they are doing didn't use a directional tee like what is required on all center and end outlet configs.


    So whoever installed that tee in that system that is collecting debri is using the wrong piping under the sink. That area where you think it should collect should never have food debri there....just the wastewater that comes from the opposite side strainer.

    dubldare/plumber1/rancher and I are right.

    Do you know what a directional tee is?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2007
  11. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    I agree to some extent, but perhaps part of the problem is that horizontal run doesn't have any slope to it, or a negative slope. But it does look like the plumber had to go out of his way to plumb it wrong.

    Rancher
     
  12. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    I do now, I think. Would this be it?: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=directional+tee+plumbing&btnG=Search+Images

    The guy used a straight tee, and the pipe is dead level. So that explains it, all right. I'll have to see if there is room to put in a directional tee. If there is, that should fix it.

    Thanks a lot for your insight. You see, we were all right.
     
  13. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Directional tee aka baffled tee.

    I wasn't going to "give it away" by mentioning the word baffle.

    On end outlet or center outlet configurations the tee will have a baffle in it to allow the opposing flow from either direction to not affect the other.


    Without that baffle will cause huge problems. It is a flow restricting tee and easily clogs sometimes depending on the end user but for the most part it is effective and required by code in most states to prevent opposing flows of drainage from conflicting with each other.

    Sometimes impossible to get a 1/4" open hook cable down one of those baffled tees when it is a center outlet waste.

    I prefer to go top down on clogged drains since hydropressure is your friend in removing clogs.
     
  14. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Baffle Ts have 1 draw back. They will catch and clog on potato, and carrot peels and also spaghetti when forced into the disposal to quickly..... of course I like it. Had 1 customer pay me twice in 2 weeks to do it. They didn't believe me when I told them the disposal wasn't grinding well and needed to be replaced.
     
  15. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    Feb 6, 2007
    I looked around in some plumbing catalogs, and didn't see any baffle tees. They do have sanitary tees, however, which is what my link above shows. I don't see how one of those could clog. I still prefer Terry's setup.

    But since I can't have that, it seems like the sanitary tee would be an improvement. A long turn tee should be even better. Better still would be a 45 degree wye, if that will fit. Is any of these acceptable and up to code?
     
  16. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    I do these things


    because I care :hugs:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/20807005.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/20807004.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/20807003.jpg

    [​IMG]


    These fittings are as common in hardware stores along with any plumbing supply house like grapes in the produce aisle at your grocery store.


    You're viewing a end outlet tee, a center outlet tee, and a disposer kit tee which is notorious for having a baffle, just like the rest of those pictured above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2007
  17. adrianmariano

    adrianmariano New Member

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    I would imagine that you were looking at catalogs of schedule 40 plumbing parts rather than drain parts. The sanitary T is a schedule 40 part. Is your drain made from schedule 40 parts, glued together? Or is it made from parts that look like the ones in the pictures posted by RUGGED? (For a picture of schedule 40 parts look back in this thread to my picture of my existing kitchen drain or the picture of the Cauldwell drain.)
     
  18. Les IsMore

    Les IsMore New Member

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    OK, here are two pictures. Thanks to both of you for showing me the fittings.

    It does look like the guy did it right -- directional tee and all (see the arrow) -- but it still collects debris. The horizontal run from the other sink doesn't get as much use as the other, and that's where the problem is.

    Unless the problem is in the slip joint or something....
     

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    Last edited: Feb 9, 2007
  19. Reasonable Perfectionist

    Reasonable Perfectionist Junior Member

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    My 2 cents

    I don't think anyone attempted to answer this question after this thread went off on a few side tangents. Plastic (PVC or polypropylene) tubular PVC traps and connected waste components do not come in different gauges, only their chrome plated brass counterparts do. If you want heavier plastic, you have to use schedule 40 PVC and glue (I've seen slip joint schedule 40 tub waste & overflows and sump pump check valves, but not traps or connected wastes) If someone did make slip joint schedule 40 fittings, I would try them. I believe it might solve the bowing and bending problem I've seen on tubular PVC traps that drain very hot dishwasher water.

    If it's not too late, I would like to put in my two cents on this thread's original subject: slip joint reliability and Ferncos.

    As a Philadelphia area master plumber for 32 years, I have used tubular plastic traps (S & P) and connected wastes (preferably end outlet, not center outlet) connected to basket strainers and waste pipes with grey PVC (not rubber or neoprene) Fernco 2-clamp connectors for more than 20 years. I came to this forum for the first time today searching for better quality PVC tubular products than the crap I've been finding lately at local and mail-order suppliers. The number of comebacks we've had for defective and poor quality plastic traps over the last year have forced me to re-think how we do traps and wastes. We've also had our share of clogs in baffle tees for customers whose "disposer abuse" never clogged their drains before we installed the tee.

    I refuse to go back to the expensive and corrosion-prone brass tubular I used 30 or so years ago. Unless I find something as good as the Sanitary-Dash double-seal traps and baffle-less wastes I used with few problems for years, I will soon start using schedule 40 traps and sanitary wye (if space allows) or tee fittings for connected wastes.

    By the way, the problems we've had have nothing to do with our use of Fernco couplings or fittings. I have never had a leak from a Fernco connection, including the connection to threaded basket strainers. (We slide a grey 1 1/2" x tubular Fernco over a tubular PVC tailpiece to connect to the strainer, thereby eliminating the leak-prone and flow restricting plastic tailpiece washer) I've also never seen a "sagged" Fernco, or one that "cut off the flow". The bare connector between the clamps actually acts as a shock absorber for garbage disposer vibrations.

    The Cauldwell drain arrangement actually makes alot of sense to me, since the 24" sink cabinet in my own kitchen holds a fullsize garbage disposer, a hot water dispenser, a two-cartridge water filtration system, a soap dispenser, and a small commercial slicer in a roll out basket.
    (Yes, it's a bit of a pain replacing the faucets) Since S-traps have been legal in Philly and it's burbs and vent fine as long as the vented line in the basement isn't too far away, I wouldn't even bother with the "AAV", unless you notice odors right from the start. If you do, take off the handy test plug from the Fernco tee and install the AAV on as long a piece of PVC pipe as you can fit in the sink cabinet, preferably higher than the bottom of the sink bowl. Cauldwell's use of wyes to join the two drains should prevent backup from one bowl to the other as long as the drain from the cabinet floor to the stack or main drain in the basement is new or very clear. (2" PVC works well here for drainage and venting reasons)

    Time for some shut-eye.
     
  20. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio
    As I look at the last 2 pic you posted the T is going directly into the trap. The debris has no where to go but float in the trap if enough water is not run through the disposer.

    To correct the problem reconfigure the drain set up by putting the T on the other side of the sink. Have a Tail piece coming directly out of the disposer and going directly to the T with a little pitch. Then drop from the T into the trap which will now be lower than where it is now in relation to where the trap is. Then run from the trap over and out the wall being sure to have some pitch all the way, I bet this cures the problem.

    Pretty much it will be set up similar to the right Pic in post #69 of this thread with a little more drop between the T and trap.

    This added drop should cure your problem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2007
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