Single shower valves have no volume control??

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by bleu_is_bleu, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. bleu_is_bleu

    bleu_is_bleu New Member

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    I'm replacing a leaking 22 year old Delta single handle shower valve that was true "2 function": 0-100% volume control by lifting/lowering the handle, and hot and cold controlled by turning left/right. But now as far as I can see the Delta, Kohler, Moen and others don't have volume control in their single valve shower assemblies. To finish my remodel I'm stuck with the American Standard Symphony to duplicate the "True" 2 function of a single lever shower assembly.

    Before I return the brand new leaking Moen Adler that fails to include stem trim and install the American Standard Symphony, can anyone comment on:

    1. Any other single handle shower models that meet the anti-scald code but which have volume control?

    2. Quality and durability of American Standard shower valves?

    3. Why did Delta and others stop making single shower valves with volume control?!?!
     
  2. jastori

    jastori Member

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    There are still valves with volume control. In delta, for example, the '13' and '14' series do not have volume control. The '17' and '17T' series do have volume control. The 'T' means 'thermostatic' which provides accurate temperature control (more expensive). The others are all 'pressure balanced' which adjusts to pressue fluctuations, but does not control temperature as accurately.

    We used a 17 series in our earlier remodel, and found that we never ended up using the volume control. In a low-flow showerhead, we ended up always having it on full-pressure. In our more recent remodel, we ended up going back to a single function (no volume control) valve. One thing I did not like about the 17 series was that the temperature control was smaller, and a bit more awkward to adjust accurately.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
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  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    They DID NOT. The Delta "universal body" with the 1700 series trim has both a volume and a "set it and forget it" temperature control lever which you CAN adjust if multiple people use the shower and want different temperatures. If you ALWAYS used the valve at "full flow" then you DID use the volume control feature, you just did not use the modulating capability of the valve.
     
  5. bleu_is_bleu

    bleu_is_bleu New Member

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    That's funny, I didn't install the "optional" 2 lever Delta, but the associate assured me it didn't have volume control when I asked about the 2nd lever function. I don't want a double lever however; the single lever that is the subject of my search, in all brands including Delta but excluding AS, had but one plane of travel. I'm going to assume that means volume control requires a cold water shower, and hot water showers can only be taken at full blast. If there is a Delta SINGLE lever (ie. up/down and left/right) shoot me a model number.
     
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    On the 1700 series, one lever adjusts the temperature and the other the volume. The only limiting factor is where you set the mandatory max temp cam. Or, if you get the cartridge and trim for the termostatic version, one still adjusts the temp and the other the volume. Don't know of any that use one lever in the dual action for volume and temp.
     
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    With the Delta, you can preset the temperature lever, or leave it at the previous setting, and then use the main lever to control the volume. You do NOT have to adjust the temperature every time you use the valve the way you do with the single lever units.
     
  8. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

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    It's been pretty well covered already, but I can vouch for the 17 series control. One main lever to control the volume and a small dial to vary the temperature. For normal shower use, the small dial is already set at a desirable warm temperature, so you just move the large lever to turn the water on. If at anytime you wish the water warmer or cooler, it's a simple matter to move the small dial, but most of the time, no adjustment is needed.
     
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    In AZ shouldn't your screen name be Azul_is_Azul? Bleu is Bleu is a Quebec signature.
     
  10. LesP

    LesP Member

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    Like Bleu, I'm also interested in a single lever to control both temperature and volume. I see that I can get that with the American Standard R128 shower valve (for PEX). I'm hesitating, however, because of the mixed reviews on the American Standard brand.

    Anyone care to comment on whether their shower valves are decent quality? Easy to repair if they do break/leak/etc.?
     
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Back to the original poster, almost ALL valves have a "volume control" function, otherwise you seed a separate volume control to turn the flow on and off. The Moentrol has a single lever to control temperature AND volume.
     
  12. LesP

    LesP Member

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    Thanks HJ. Unfortunately I couldn't find a Moentrol valve with threaded outlet ports. The American Standard R128 shower valve allows me to avoid soldering. And it has variable, rather than just on-off, volume control.

    But I'm still trying to determine if American Standard is decent quality. I don't need anything "gold-plated" but I also don't want to put junk in the wall.

    I look forward to any feedback or recommendations...
     
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    You'd almost certainly need to solder at least some of the piping, so why not just solder the new valve in? You do want to remove the cartridge (generally) prior to soldering, but it's not a big deal. Why limit yourself to choosing a valve with only threaded connections? The only reason I can think of is if you had flexible hoses connecting the thing...to unscrew the rigid pipe connections, you'd have to cut the pipe somewhere anyways, and resolder it.

    I've had good luck with the R10000 rough-in valve from Delta which is available in numerous configurations. With that rough-in valve body, you have a choice of three types of cartridge:
    - single handle pressure balance
    - two controls - volume, temperature
    - two controls - volume, thermostatic control
    While some big box stores package the rough-in and trim together, if you go most other places, they are separate, and once you have it in, if you decide you want to 'upgrade', you can leave the guts in the wall and just pick up a new trim/cartridge kit and restore it to like new condition.
     
  14. LesP

    LesP Member

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    Thanks for your response, Jim. There is currently no copper in the entire house (vintage mid-'60s). So I'm pulling out the galvanized water supply pipes and going direct to 100% PEX. I know I can't use PEX for the tub spout, but figured that I could use a brass or steel 90 and nipple there. With that plan, I wouldn't have any other soldering to do, unless I am missing something.

    I have looked at the Delta R10000-MF (for PEX) and like that setup quite a bit. But the problem is that to get the adjustable volume control you have to step up to the 17 series trim which are quite expensive. The cheapest one in that series (Ashlyn) is over $150 with the cartridge and is mostly plastic parts. By comparison, the American Standard Seva trim kit is only $50 and is made of metal.

    This is one of three bathrooms I am re-doing so I have to pay attention to the budget, unfortunately. But that said, I don't want to buy junk that will cost way more down the road in time and repairs. Does anyone have feedback on their experiences with American Standard products and their warranty coverage?

    Thanks much! I have to commit to the rough-in box soon...
     
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Double-check that the AS trim kit comes with the cartridge...it may be part of the valve. On the R10000, it does NOT come with a cartridge, so the trim kit is where it is included, making the comparison potentially inaccurate. You need to compare the total cost of the rough-in and trim. The majority of my car is plastic...CFRP frame, plastic body panels, with some aluminum bits here and there...plastic, done right, is fine. In price, the single handle valves will almost always be the least expensive in their line...as you add complexity, and the requirement for a second handle, the costs go up, but so does the functionality. To meet today's anti-scald requirements, it's far easier to do it with a single handle device. Personally, I much prefer the convenience of a thermostatically controlled valve...it takes care of the summer/winter, and full/empty WH temperature fluctuations all by itself until it just can't keep things as hot as you want when the hot water runs out.
     
  16. LesP

    LesP Member

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    You are absolutely right, Jim -- with Delta the cartridge comes with the trim, whereas American Standard includes the cartridge with the rough-in. The Am Std R128 rough-in and cartridge runs about $52 plus whatever trim I select. The Delta rough-in costs about $30 without stops and $42 with stops. (On a different topic: do I need stops if using a PEX manifold?) All told, there is not a huge price difference if I go with a low-cost trim -- maybe $50 -- so it really does come down to one handle vs. two and the manufacturer quality. I would prefer the cleaner look of just one handle, but being ever the practical one, I would go with two handles if it means a much higher quality...

    Can anyone who has installed &/or used American Standard shower faucets weigh in? It is so hard to buy this stuff sight unseen...
     
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The Delta R1000 rough-in accepts single all three styles of tub/shower control valves...you can have a single handle if you wish, or get one of the two varieties with volume control.

    Some of the pros indicate that they hardly ever buy the rough-in with stops...to access them, you have to take the trim off, and you do not need to do that to replace the cartridge To prevent cross-over between hot and cold during construction, you either need to install the cartridge, or in the case of the Delta, insert the plug kit (used to come with the rough-in, it's not optional, I think, but cheap) if you haven't decided on trim yet. They can be useful if there's no easy way to turn the water off, or if you need to keep other things working if you needed to just shut that off, but in general, in most homes, it's just as easy to turn the water off for the short time it takes to replace the cartridge, or, in your case, if you have individual cutoffs on the manifold, do it there. IOW, why spend the money for them? Especially if you decide to caulk around the trim...lots of extra work.
     
  18. LesP

    LesP Member

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    Okay, so I went ahead and ordered the American Standard parts. The Seva trim kit is quite nice -- both the escutcheon and handle are metal and the design is simple and modern.

    Seva trim kit.JPG

    The R128 rough-in valve is extremely hefty, but should the shower outlet port look this ragged?

    R128-Shr outlet.JPG

    It almost looks like it isn't fully bored or is that normal?
     
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