Silica etching glasses

[MaplesonD]

Hey guys,
We installed a water softener a few years ago and it immediately improved our issues with scale and hardness. We then had all of our glasses turn cloudy with an etched appearance (not sure the timing, but a couple years after the softener was in operation I'd guess). They did not clear up with the normal acid approach, soaked in vinegar, lemon juice, coke, etc. After verifying my water is still soft (<1 grain via Hach home test kit), and googling, I am almost certain the issue has to be silica buildup based on the description found here. I have found that I can remove the iridescent film with baking soda, bon ami, barkeepers friend, ie mild abrasives, but they do not fix the areas that seem to be etched.

1. I uploaded my water analysis from a few years back, which showed silica at ~30 mg/L, is this colloidal or in solution? Can I reduce this with a filter or would it require RO? Should I have multiple stages of filters or just put a ultrafilter after the softener?
2. I'm gathering that my current glasses are permanently etched. If I found some system to remove the silica at the iridescent stage, would that prevent it from progressing to the etching?
3. The linked website talks about reducing detergent in the dishwasher or using specific softwater detergents, does anyone know of a specific type of dishwasher detergent that would prevent this silica buildup -> etching?
4. Aside from lead crystal, are there affordable glasses that would be resistant to this type of etching?

Thanks for any insight

 

[ditttohead]

This has been an interesting topic in our industry for many years. Many companies claim to have solutions ranging from magnesium oxide injection to silica sequestrants but in general all have failed at the small application level.

In general, we recommend a few fixes. Be sure your shower doors are coated with a hydrophobic coating. These coatings go under many names and most higher end shower door manufacturers offer some sort of coating which can greatly reduce this issue.

If you want to try to lessen the problems with your current shower doors and other areas that are getting damaged, a simple coating of rain-x tends to do wonders. Glass that is already etched is basically not salvageable.

As to your clear drinking glasses, just assume you will be replacing them regularly. Fortunately most clear glassware is fairly inexpensive so this is not too much of an issue.

Otherwise your options are basically a high end (not the online ultra cheap) whole house Ro, not usually a good idea but certainly effective.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-backwards-other-questions.79965/#post-579337 mentions Libbey.

 

[MaplesonD]

Thanks for the help guys, I actually do order all of our glasses from libbey because they are super durable, they never break (also reasonably priced, and the same lady was still there after ordering glasses like 7 years apart). So I'm not really interested in whole-house RO, like you said its too expensive, but is there any evidence that shows ultrafiltration with a inline filter does anything to address the silica? Someone on a neighborhood forum said that was their plan, but I don't put much faith in one anecdotal account who hasn't even seen results yet.

Also, the one website lays the blame at the lack of phosphates in dishwashing detergent. Those were apparently bad for the environment, so not looking to get phosphates, but is there a detergent that is less likely to contribute to this silica buildup?

I was daydreaming about getting a sandblaster enclosure type thing and using baking soda to quickly clean glasses every once in a while, but it will probably be cheaper and easier to just order new glasses every few years, haha.

 

[Reach4]

Jet Dry might help by letting water sheet off better during rinse. You are probably already doing that.

 

[ditttohead]

Libbey is amazing, good quality, good price, and they tend to hold up. We even had our company trade show mugs made with Libbey glass mugs. Ultrafiltration does nothing for most silica issues but if you want spend a ton of money on complex and expensive equipment that is really designed for colloidal, tannins, and some other larger contaminants then go for it.

Agree with Reach, JetDry!

 

[MaplesonD]

Ultrafiltration does nothing for most silica issues but if you want spend a ton of money on complex and expensive equipment that is really designed for colloidal, tannins, and some other larger contaminants then go for it.

Nope, not trying to spend time and money fruitlessly, this is exactly why I came here, to get feedback from knowledgeable people in order to avoid that, so I truly appreciate it. But yeah, we started using the rinse agent, can't tell that it does much, but we started using it after we noticed the problem so if used preventitively maybe it would have slowed it down.

 

[Bannerman]

It appears you are assuming the issue is being caused by Silica, but haven't confirmed how much detergent is being used. Because detergent is intended to 'soften' water so it can better dissolve residue stuck to the items being washed, with the water already softened, little detergent will be needed.

We experienced a very similar etching issue after we installed our softener. As we had been filling both detergent dispenser cups to the max to combat our 24 gpg hard water, continuing to use that much detergent with softened water resulted in etching on our clear glassware. After some trial and error, we learned filling only 1/3 to 1/2 of a single detergent dispenser is all that is needed for clean dishes. Although detergent pods are now common, we find they contain more detergent than needed so we prefer to use either powder or liquid detergent so we can control the amount dispensed.

Once our glassware became etched, they could not be made clear again. While we notice some low quality glassware will slowly etch over time, the higher quality Libbey glasses we have been using daily for almost 3 years, continue to appear as new.

 

[Reach4]

Idea for dishwasher makers: have an RO water input, and mist maybe 1/2 gallon or so of RO water over the dishes after the final regular rinse.

 

[rdsnake]

I would love to see a picture of the glasses.

 

[Bannerman]

have an RO water input, and mist maybe 1/2 gallon or so of RO water over the dishes after the final regular rinse.

To my understanding, the etching is a result of the alkalinity of the detergent, not the soft water.

I suppose using RO water for final rinse would prevent spotting, as opposed to using a sheeting/sequestering agent such as JetDry which we likely ingest every time we use our dishes. Some people apparently use white vinegar instead of JetDry.

The recommended detergent quantities are usually based on some amount of hardness being present in the water, and DW manuals will typically indicate additional detergent will be required when water hardness exceeds a specific amount. When softened water is used, the quantity of detergent is to be reduced.