Shower mixing valve

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Gregmech26

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Do I have a shower mixing valve issue or a water heater issue?

Let me start off by saying I'm a regular guy and total amateur "newbie" lay person. I'm not a plumber or professional tradesman. I want the strongest water pressure and water flow and water volume possible in my shower, even if it means upgrading to 3/4 inch pipe or purchasing vintage parts on ebay.

Anyhow, I recently purchased a new water heater 2 years ago because my old water heater only allowed me to take a 5 minute shower before literally running out of hot water.

After the new 50 gallon "high recovery" water heater was installed , I was now able to take a 20 minute shower before the hot water runs out. I do have the water-saver removed from our Speakman Anystream 4-jet shower head, which was purchased prior to the 1992 water saving regulations. I suppose the showerhead puts out around 5 gpm? I have no clue really.

Anyhow, our new "fast-recovery" water heater is only 2 years old, but I can only take a 10 minute shower before it completely runs out of hot water. Keep in mind I'm not using 100% hot water while showering, so I feel I should be able to take longer hot showers before the hot water runs out.

The company that installed the water heater came out to take a look and opened some little door/slot at the bottom of the water heater and said all their lights were green and no indication of problems. Our house was built in 1987 in Michigan with excellent "soft" city water with copper pipes throughout our house. They "flushed" our 2-year old new water heater in an attempt to remove any debris, but this did nothing to solve the issue. Our 2 year warranty ends next week on Jan 26.

We use to have over 100 psi, but the city built a new water tower in 2014 in an attempt to save money on the high-cost of importing Detroit water. Apparently the city activates their new water tower between the hours of 5am-10am Mon-Fri to help mitigate cost.

The city came over and measured our water pressure at a neighbors fire hydrant. They said we now only have around 50-55 psi which they claim is considered "excellent." We grew up on 100 psi so it's a big change of pressure regardless if it's "excellent". I can still place my hand over the shower head and stop the water. In the old days, the shower head pressure would blow my arm down it was so strong.

Shouldn't I at least get be getting a 20 minute hot shower before running out?

The worker said I likely have a shower mixing-valve or faucet issue; however , I told him it was the same shower mixing valve and faucet and shower head I had 2 years ago and I got 20 minutes hot water back then, so why all of a sudden am I only getting 10 minutes? The shower is 19 years old in our finished basement completed in Feb 1998.

We have a 1 inch pipe in the basement where the water enters the house and is quickly reduced to 3/4 inch pipe, and then after the water heater it's all 1/2 inch copper pipes. We have the valves where you have to turn like a wheel to turn on-or-off. Our house is around 5,000 sq feet if you include the finished basement, but there are just 2 of us living in the house. My senior citizen mother only takes like a 5 minute mini-shower.

I noticed upstairs, the farthest point away from the water heater, that the sink branches off from the 1/2 pipe to 1/4 straw-like copper pipes, however ,the water pressure at the sink is incredible powerful. Our jacuzzi in the master bedroom must be coming off 3/4 pipe diverter, because when you turn the separate hot and cold valves together, it creates an incredibly powerful pressure to fill the tub fast. I wish I had that pressure/flow coming out of my shower head in the basement. I heard some plumbers will turn the diverter "upside down" so the shower gets all that pressure? Have you heard of that?

I recently had someone replace the toilet "ball valve apparatus" , and now the water saving features makes flushing the toilet an issue/ We sometimes have to flush twice because of the water saving features. I' m afraid if I have to change the shower mixing valve off of our 1/2 copper pipes, that the new regulations will have built-in water-savers inside the new mixing valve which will make my water pressure in the shower suck compared to what I grew up with.

I've heard of the Kohler HighFlow RiteTemp pressure balancing shower mixing valve for 3/4 pipe that gives up to 13 gpm , but i only have 1/2 pipe. The most I've found for 1/2 pipe is only 7 pgm. Some other brands apparently go up to 19 gpm if you are lucky enough t have 3/4 pipe at the mixing valve.

At the end of the day I'm all about having the strongest water pressure, water flow, water volume possible while showering (regardless of the price or having to find vintage parts to install from eBay).

Do you think i have a water heater problem, or is my issue regarding my shower mixing valve faucet? I could get a 100 gallon water heater, but that's ridiculous for only 2 people in the house. All my valves are fully opened.

I also wish I could bring my toilet back to its glory days with its powerful flush. Do you think if I buy a vintage replacement toilet "ball valve apparatus" that it may solve the water saving issue while flushing?

I like to take showers that feel like a fire hose blasting you, like in the Jerry Seinfeld and Kramer episode. I miss my shower pressure my childhood from the 1980's. I don't think I have a pressure balancing or thermastatic valve as it was from 1997.

I've done a lot of research regarding incoming City water pressure PSI, shower heads, valves, cartridges, 3/4 pipe, copper vs PEX plastic, water pressure booster pumps, well water pumps, water softeners, pressure reducing valves, etc and it can get very complicated depending on the issue. The 3/4 plastic has the same inner diameter as 1/2 copper.

Any advice on maximizing water flow/pressure throughout the house, and especially the shower, is appreciated.

I wish I could have someone take apart my 19-year old shower mixing valve (single handle faucet) to check for problems and then put it back together instead of having to buy a new one with built-in water savers. I find it's getting more difficult to even bring your own shower head to a newly remodeled hotel nowadays because of the built-in water savers behind the wall in the mixing valves and cartridges behind the faucet handle.

The single handle shower faucet is made by American Standard.
The 50-gallon High-recovery water heater is made by Bradford White (Defender series).
 

Reach4

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Anyhow, our new "fast-recovery" water heater is only 2 years old, but I can only take a 10 minute shower before it completely runs out of hot water. Keep in mind I'm not using 100% hot water while showering, so I feel I should be able to take longer hot showers before the hot water runs out.
That is one symptom that is very different from the flow/pressure symptoms. Getting more water out of the showerhead is going to make the hot water get used up faster. Try cranking the temperature up at the WH so that you use less hot in the mix.



I like to take showers that feel like a fire hose blasting you, like in the Jerry Seinfeld and Kramer episode. I miss my shower pressure my childhood from the 1980's. I don't think I have a pressure balancing or thermastatic valve as it was from 1997.
Try measuring the flow rate from the shower by seeing how much water comes out of the showerhead in a given amount of time. One way to measure gallons of water is by weight. That flow number will get compared to the hot water usage. 2.5 gallons/minute for 20 minutes is 50 gallons. A Kramer elephant washing spray will use more water.

You should have a garden hose thread pressure gauge for your investigations. They are cheap.
 

Gregmech26

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Thank you Reach4 for your informative replies. They are much appreciated.

I forgot to mention that my water heater has always been turned up to the max, and stays that way 24/7. it's so hot I sometimes worry it may have snapped off the Anode rod, but my installer says it has nothing to do with my issues.

Yes, I basically have two separate issues.

Why does my hot water run out after just 10 minutes on a 2-year old "high recovery" 50-gallon water heater? Nobody uses straight 100% hot water while showering. It's always mixed with some cold water. This is why I figured I should have longer hot shower than just 10 minutes. I feel like my water heater somehow lost its "high recovery" capacity, as I use to feel the hot water recooperating in the first year of ownership. Now it's straight out of hot water in just 10 minutes, compared to nearly 20-minutes just the following year.

The installer claims the WH is fine and it must be a mixing-valve problem forcing cold water into the hot water.
Is there a way to use the 3/4 mixing valve on my 1/2 copper pipe, and then reduce back to 1/2 pipe s oI can get the maximum GPM?

Also, how would I maximize the water pressure/flow/volume out of my shower head considering all the new "water-saving" mixing valves and cartridges , diverters and shower faucets after 1992 are restricted? My fear is replacing the mixing valve only to have less GPM due to cartridge/valve/diverter ,etc.

I think it's excessive to buy a 100 gallon WH just to take a 20minute shower; however, taking 2.5 gpm showers makes me miserable regardless of the shower head. I've tried them all (even the custom built ones on ebay that have been drilled for better pressure/flow).

http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Masters...-trim/428603.htm?skuId=411332&brandId=1148911
 
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Reach4

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Why does my hot water run out after just 10 minutes on a 2-year old "high recovery" 50-gallon water heater? Nobody uses straight 100% hot water while showering. It's always mixed with some cold water. This is why I figured I should have longer hot shower than just 10 minutes.
Some set their WH temperatures cooler and do use 100% hot. Not relevant to your thing.

Is the WH electric? If so, your lower thermostat or heating element may be bad, according to what I read.
 

Gregmech26

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Thank you. I will test to see how much GPM is actually coming out of the shower head. I was told by the City of Farmington Hills that the PSI changes significantly throughout the day depending on what time of day it is since they "turn on" their own water tower in addition to the water supplied by Detroit.

It is a gas WH.

I suppose there is a chance my WH and mixing valve are 100% fine, and that my shower head is depleting the hot water faster than my high-recovery WH can keep up.

But it makes me wonder why I could take a 20-minute HOT shower last year and now I can only take a 10-minute HOT shower when I have the exact same mixing valve, shower head, and water heater. If it continues at this pace, it looks like I will only be able to take 5 minute shower in a couple years.

I really don't want to pay a lot of money and hire a plumber to mess with the mixing valve if there is nothing wrong with it.
 

Reach4

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But it makes me wonder why I could take a 20-minute HOT shower last year and now I can only take a 10-minute HOT shower when I have the exact same mixing valve, shower head, and water heater. If it continues at this pace, it looks like I will only be able to take 5 minute shower in a couple years.
I understand your situation. It sounds like a not good WH to me, but I don't have a way to test or prove that.

One thing you could do is to get one of those IR thermometers. They are cheap now. Check the water temperature on the output pipe. I don't really think that some mixing valve gone mad is messing you up, but it might be worth checking.

Too bad that was not a satisfaction guarantee on the WH.
 

Jadnashua

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Do you notice this more often in the winter? The incoming cold water temperature will affect how much hot water you use in your shower to get the desired outlet temperature (much less cold when it gets frigid verses in the summertime when it could be nearly room temperature), and, will dilute that in the WH faster. From a practical situation, you cannot normally get more than about 75-80% of the capacity of the WH out while at full temperature since the incoming, cold water will eventually dilute it and overcome the ability of the heating to sustain the temperature.

There hasn't been an issue with dip tubes in WH for awhile, but that's a possibility. Incoming cold water gets directed to the bottom of the tank by a tube (often plastic) in the inlet line. If that tube breaks or leaks, the cold can mix with the hot water at the top of the WH and seriously deplete your hot water supply.

The only ways to increase the velocity of the water coming out of the showerhead are to raise the incoming water pressure, or, throttle the outlet (sort of like putting your finger over the end of the hose to make it go further - really faster, since the pressure stays the same), or, if the head can use more water than the supply pipes, increase the size of the pipes and valves ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE SUPPLY system.

Well, you could buy a water pressure augmentation system - essentially, an inline pump with a small bladder tank so it doesn't have to turn on for small draws of water (that would be supplied by the stored energy in the bladder tank - same idea as a well's bladder tank).

FWIW, plumbing code specifies that inside the house (not the supply pressure which can be higher), the system pressure should not exceed 80psi. Valves, hoses, etc. are not designed for continuous higher pressures. Certainly, they are tested to higher values to provide a safety margin, but it should not exceed those values in a home.
 

Gregmech26

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Thank you Jadnashua,

The hot water supply is pretty much the same regardless of the season. When we first got the WH in Feb 2015 it had excellent hot water for about 17 minutes. I have the feeling that the "high recovery" portion of my WH has failed to function after the first 6 months of operation, but I can never prove that. I don't even know how they would check if that is the case?.

I only have about 55 psi according to the city which tested the fire hydrant across the street at a neighbor. We use to have well over 100 psi in 1988 (back in the late 1980's before they built a bunch of new houses/subdivisions to share our city water with).

I would be in heaven if I had 80 psi, but for some reason the city will not increase it back to 80 psi. They claim anything over 50 psi is considered excellent. Also, when the City built their brand new water tower to augment the Detroit city water, apparently they switched us over to another "pumping station" which is an additional full mile further away from our house (making it 2 miles away instead of 1 mile). The City could easily increase it back to 80 psi if they wanted too. I'm just not the Mayor, or in a powerful position to make it happen.

The "water pressure augmentation system" you mentioned sounds interesting; however, I think the incoming psi from the city has to be less than the outgoing psi provided by the unit? Or am I wrong? Plus, I wouldn't even know where to purchase that, let alone find a qualified plumber to install it on my 1/2 copper pipe with existing 55 psi.

Yes, for me the extra 25 psi would be well worth it.
 
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