Shower drain relocate. Which is harder?

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LesP

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I have a bathroom in the basement sitting on a 4"slab. The drain for the shower is currently 18" from the corner walls. This location doesn't match any of the pre-fab shower receptacles I have looking at (38" or 42" neo-angle or neo-round).

So, I figure I have two options:
1) break up the concrete and move the 1965 galvanized pipe to a location that will match a new shower pan

2) leave the drain where it is and build a custom shower pan around it

I am an advanced DIYer but haven't worked with buried plumbing so far...

Which option would you recommend why?
Are there any other options I should consider instead?
 

CountryBumkin

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It's much easier to just build a dry-pack pan around the existing drain location.

But it won't look as nice a centered drain, and if you want to go with a modern waterproofing system (like Kerdi or USG Durock Shower System) witch uses a surface applied membrane, you need to replace the drain with the matching "bonded flange" style drain type.
It is not hard to break out a chunk of slab (easier than you would think) with a rented demo hammer.

Lastly as your plumbing/house is old it is possible/likely that the galvanized piping is corroded and restricted. This is your chance to replace the Shower P-trap, so I would recommend breaking out the concrete, replacing the P-trap, and installing a Kerdi (or similar) drain, then creating the pan pre-slope with dry-pack and applying using the "surface applied membrane". PS, don't use the liquid applied waterproofing method, as it is too easy to mess up the application and get leaks later. IMO.

Another great source for info is here http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php
 

Gary Swart

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Breaking concrete isn't as difficult as you may think, BUT doing it without having concrete dust over everything, cleaning up the mess is a real PITA. There are businesses that do this kind of work without making a mess, and cleaning up and hauling the debris away. In my opinion, it would be worth at least looking into this. They would have the whole thing done before you could roundup the tools and equipment. There are some jobs best done by the pros.
 

Jadnashua

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I'll second the recommendation of using a surface applied membrane. You want to get rid of as much galvanized stuff as you can when doing any renovation. A vent line can last much longer than a drain line, but if it's exposed when you get started, tear that out, too.

One thing you could do, but it will cost more, is to utilize a linear drain across the shower at the existing drain location (IMHO, it works better at an end wall, but will work fine if you like the look anywhere) and then, all you need is two flat slopes to the drain rather than a bowl to a central drain. That would mean custom cutting of all of the bottom row of wall tile. The hassle with a drain that is not centered when using a normal one is that most people want the look of an even bottom row of tile. To achieve that, when it's closer to one wall than the other, and that you need at least 1/4"/foot slope, the slope to the short wall will be steeper than to the long wall, or you have to deal with that uneven bottom row.
 

LesP

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Thanks for the feedback...sounds like a jackhammer is in my future!

My first task is to extract the vintage (1965?)existing metal shower. Any suggestions on how to separate the pan from the drain pipe?

Metal Shower.jpg Shower Drain.jpg

Does the slot suggest that I should be able to "unscrew" the parts?
 

Terry

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If that is lead, which I used to use quite often in the past for drains, you can drill or pry that out. With a fiberglass pan I used to cut that section out. Metal makes it tougher.
 

LesP

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Okay, I'll get to work on the lead in the morning. In the meantime, I measured to the bottom of the P-trap and it is a whopping 21". I guess I shouldn't be surprised since this is where the plumbing exits the house, so I suppose it has to be deep. I'm hoping I don't have to dig halfway to China to replace/move the galvanized pipe.

I can rent a Makita demo hammer (considered "small" at 35 pounds!) from the big box store. Any suggestions on how to tackle this job safely...for both me and the pipes under the slab? I have used every manner of woodworking tool, but this is new territory for me. I'm game to give it a try, but hope I don't do anything stoopid.

Thanks for your advice and encouragement -- you folks are fantastic!
 

CountryBumkin

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The Demo hammers usually come with a point tip and chisel tip. Use the point tip. Start about 8 - 10 inches away from the drain. let the hammer punch a hole through the concrete. Move the hammer about 4 inches right or left staying the 8-10 from drain. Work around the drain this way in a circle.
If the concrete is really thick you may not be a punch a hole through it in one pass. Just work around the circle as necessary. Once you are through and have a 16 - 20 inch area cleared, you'll need to dig out the fill dirt. If you need a bigger hole to work on the pipes, its easy to expand the hole by chipping away at the edges.
There may be reinforcing wire in the concrete. If so you'll need to cut it as you expose it. It can be tough to cut with normal hand tools. I use bolt cutters, but a cutoff wheel on a grinder will work too.
 

FullySprinklered

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looks like CountryBumpkin has been there and done that. If you are young and healthy, go for it. I've sworn off the jackhammer numerous times in the past, but I happily recommend it to others.
 

LesP

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I finally got back to this project and was able to remove the concrete shower pan, thanks to my gorilla bar!
Assorted 022.JPG

I pulled the top layer of lead off the drain and then drilled 1/8" holes between the collar and the pipe, but so far the collar is not budging.
Assorted 023.JPG

Since the consensus seems to be that I should tear out the concrete, I figure I can use a Fernco fitting to tie new ABS into the old galvanized and in the process move the drain to its new location. For speed of install, I was planning to put in an acrylic shower base such as a 42"x 42" neo-angle from DreamLine (http://www.bathauthority.com/neo-sector-low-profile-shower-bases.html). Does this sound like a reasonable plan to the assembled experts?

Thanks for giving me the confidence to tackle this job!
 

CountryBumkin

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The fernco style coupler (old iron to ABS) is the way to do it.
I would not install a pre-built shower base. I would recommend you build your shower by using a dry-pack (deck mud) base http://www.johnbridge.com/how-to/deck-mud/ and then putting down a surface applied waterproofing membrane like Kerdi http://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Shower-System/KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/Schluter®-KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/p/KERDI_SHOWER-KIT or USG Durock Shower System http://durockshowersystem.com/custom-shower-tray-program.aspx and then tiling over that. It is better looking, IMO (more high end) and this way you are tying the wall waterproofing to the floor waterproofing.
But it's up to you of course.
 
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LesP

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I started the excavation work today and found...cast iron pipe *not* galvanized. The above ground drain and vent lines are all galvanized (except for the 4" cast iron main stack), so I had assumed that the galvanized continued underground. Multiple people had recommended replacing the galvanized p-trap -- is this still necessary with the cast iron?

002.JPG

Having done more reading on dry pack shower bases (thanks for the links, Mike!), I think I'm up for the task. If I don't need to replace the cast iron, then I would like to leave the drain where it is (18" from one wall and 25" from the other wall). Will this look & work okay? The silver collar with the red insert is where the drain would need to be if I used a pre-fab pan (~14" from each wall).

009.JPG



By the way, for those dealing with a similar situation I used a Bosch hammer drill to do the small amount of chipping shown. If I have to do more than this, I will rent a demo hammer as suggested earlier. I was not successful removing the lead between the collar and pipe by drilling. Instead, I used a reciprocating saw with a metal blade to make a vertical cut and was then able to pry the collar off easily.

008.JPG

This 2" cast iron pipe sits 1-1/4" above the surrounding concrete. If I leave the drain in the current location, will I have to cut it down several inches in order to Fernco in an ABS stub? The Durock Shower System drain indicates that it "accommodates 2" and 3" ABS or PVC waste lines, allowing for solvent-weld and no-hub connections". Could I couple the drain assembly directly to the cast iron?

Thanks again for your guidance...
 

CountryBumkin

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You can couple the new drain to the cast iron as you said. It depends on how far down the p-trap is because you need to cut away some of the existing pipe (below surface) and still have enough pipe left above the p-trap to clamp on the coupler. If the p-trap is not located deep enough the combination of coupler and new drain will end up being too high above the concrete surface.

However, if you house is old, it may be wiser to dig up the p-trap and replace it now. These old cast iron pipes corrode over time and they can become rough inside (which clogs easier) and restricted (and based on the photo, that looks to be happening). This would be the time to replace it.
 

LesP

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I measured about 21" down before the p-trap turns, so cutting a little bit off wouldn't be a problem, but excavating the whole thing would be quite a chore. To get that deep, I'm guessing the hole in concrete will have to be quite large?

That's why I was hoping I wouldn't need to replace the cast iron... But (eagle eye) Mike, you're right -- there were a lot of rust flakes at the top of the pipe where there is only standing water when the main line is temporarily blocked due to overzealous roots in the yard. I shudder to think how corroded the p-trap itself is with water sitting in it all the time.

006.JPG
 

LesP

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The trouble I can get into on a long weekend... With everyone's encouragement, I kept digging...and digging...and digging.

Ten inches down I found what I assume is the tell-tale sign of rusting pipes:
003.JPG

So I kept digging and digging through the hard PNW clay soil. I was expecting the drain line to be heading towards the wet wall, but to my surprise, it was running parallel to the wet wall, towards the main stack. I'm not sure if it was the vibrations from the hammer drill (a relatively slim Bosch 11224VSR model) or the effects of sitting in the damp clay for 50+ years, but look what fell over with barely a whimper:

016.JPG

Here you can see the p-trap where it all came apart:

017.JPG

So, now the big question is how to tie in some nice fresh ABS pipe:
- do I cut the cast iron to the right or the left of the hub?
- can I use my reciprocating saw with 14 tpi Lenox blades (supposedly designed for thick metal)?

Here's a close-up of the hub:

028.JPG

What is the best approach so that I don't accidentally damage any of the vintage cast iron downstream from this spot?

And thanks for the junior plumber badge -- that gave me a good laugh after a hard day's work!

029.JPG
 

CountryBumkin

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It's a good thing you decided to go further into the project. It would have been a shame to build a new shower then have to rip it out a few years later when the p-trap/pipe failed. Best to get it over with now.

It's easy to enlarge the hole now. Just keep chipping away at the edge until it's big enough to work in. Save the dirt so you can back fill later. be sure to make the hole big enough. It is easy to mess up things when your trying to work in a tight space. Give your self enough room. Good luck
 
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