Should the big 3 auto-makers be bailed out?

Discussion in 'Computers and Stuff' started by Dunbar Plumbing, Nov 16, 2008.

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Should the Auto Industry get bailed out?

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  2. Yes, but they'll still tank years later

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  3. No, read option 2

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  4. No, they had 30 years to prepare and they blew it

    23 vote(s)
    85.2%
  1. Mort

    Mort New Member

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    CA
    Kind of a tangent, but as of today, Mattel has over twice the market cap of GM.....whoda thunk:eek:

    These car guys are kind of pikers in the great 08 bailout mania.....hecks fire, AIG alone is up above $150B with no upside in sight.

    Please write your representatives and urge them to help the Bank of Mort....we'll bail cheap.

    Mort
     
  2. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Today the vote was delayed and the auto execs must present a business plan before they get money...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

    I wonder why the finance wizards that squandered my 401k didn't have to do that?

    Get the rope! It's time to have a few good ol fashioned necktie parties!
     
  3. maintenanceguy

    maintenanceguy In the Trades

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    Heard on the radio yesterday that the rail and public transit industry is having a difficult time now too. I bet they'll be in Washington with their hand out within a month.
     
  4. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Obama will save us...
     
  5. Mort

    Mort New Member

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    Fixed it for you
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2008
  6. Obama the Plumber

    Obama the Plumber Plumber

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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2009
  7. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    A Modern Parable

    A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

    On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

    The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

    Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

    Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

    They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

    The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

    Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

    The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .

    Here's something else to think about: FORD has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

    Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'.

    IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY :mad:
     
  8. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    San Diego, CA
    This is the home of Bob Nardelli. Built with the loot he plundered from Home Depot, and now Chrsysler. For pete's sake...HE could bail out Chrysler all by himself!
    [​IMG]
     
  9. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    Before I got into this business, I worked directly with the Big 3 as a Tier 1 auto supplier. I wore many hats as Manufacturing Engineer, Design Engineer, and Project Manager. The above joke is dead on ... they deserve to go down the toilet. Ford was the worst organization and to this day I would never buy one of their products.
     
  10. excalibu26

    excalibu26 New Member

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    Dec 4, 2008
    What is conveniently ignored, and you need to wrap your brain around this, is all the tax benefits Tokyo gives their auto makers. Including rebating taxes that Toyota, Honda, et al pay in the USA.

    This is not a level playing field at all. Even with all the *legacy* problems that US auto makers have. The goal from Tokyo has been, and still is, to destroy as much American industry as they can, and that we are willing to allow with unwitting fools.
     
  11. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    There is always a "real" reason and a "good" reason in any argument. You have given me the "good" reason. Show me the data. They simply don't know how to run a business and their quality and levels of customer service can't compare. Also, costs are totally out of control ... but the answer was not to keep pounding on their suppliers so that there was zero profit in it for them ... that just leads to more problems. It is also interesting to look back into history at the last oil crisis during the 70's ... again the Big 3 was caught with their pants down with huge inventories of gas guzzlers. All of the profit margin is in the gas guzzler. Last I knew, Ford made about 15,000 on a larger truck like an F350. Yet a small car like a cavelier (GM) made only $100.
     
  12. excalibu26

    excalibu26 New Member

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    Perception counts for too much. The quality gap has been virtually closed since the 1980's low point. But perception is different, and adversely affects the issue.

    The facts are that Tokyo aids their car makers, big time, to the detriment of America's. Yes, *legacy* costs need to be reigned in. But as for quality, there is little difference any more.
     
  13. Master Plumber 101

    Master Plumber 101 In the Trades

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    Wisconsin
    It appears the same people who feel the goverment interferes to much now want the goverment to save them. I don't blame the workers for this situation. It's clearly greed of the elite who put our country in this position. They can continue to bath in the filth they created but in the end the axe will drop on them. It's us peons who truly control this great nation. The way we get goverment and the elite to listen is with our pocket books. Things have to get much worse before they can get better.

    TOTO manufactures many of their products in America
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2009
  14. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    You're joking right? Do you really think a Honda or Toyota quality and the big 3 are at par ... not even close. My Toyota truck at 186K miles has only needed a clutch and a slave cylinder. That was it. Last month, Toyota bought back my truck do to excessive rust ... paid me $8700:eek: ( that was 1.5 x retail book value)and put me in a rental car for 7 weeks at NO COST. That is customer service.
     
  15. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

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    us peons are in trouble.if we dont make concessions...


    this is all probably true,
    the one part you have not taken into consideration is " us peons" dont really control anything....

    and when its all said and done and everything starts going down the drain we are not going to just be peons anymore....

    most of us are gonna all be called " peasents".......


    basically ...... if we dont bail them out and somehow castrate the idiot management at the top,,,,

    we are going to all be peasents for a long time.

    no home, no job and no where to go......

    I dont think many people know exactly what the
    difference is between being a peon and being a peasnet.

    A peon is someone who still has a job and a
    living and was willing to make concessions to his lavish paycheck and benefits he has enjoyed for 45 years......

    those concessioins are necessary or he will learn what it means to be a peasent...


    A peasent is someone standing at the street corner with a "I will work for food" sign...



    I suggest that we bail them out ,
    or be willing to suffer some very dire consequences




    ..

    .

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  16. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    Grab some tnb.gif cuz yo gonna need it.
     
  17. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    You've heard the old axiom: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

    If you give the Big 3 all that money, what is going to change? Perhaps we may see what the airlines did, go bankrupt, bust the unions, and start the business back up. Something radical must happen ... we do not have the money to bail out every business that is failing.
     
  18. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    Hey Rugged:
    Are you close to the Ford Transmission plant in Sharonville ... I made many a trip out there. I seem to remember the plant was 100 acres under one roof ... monsterous.
     
  19. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    [​IMG]

    On my GMC work van I have replaced both the transmission and the engine before I reached 200K miles. My wifes Toyota Camry has almost 240K without anything other than routine maint.

    Some years back I bought a 1969 Chevy Van used that had 230K on it when I bought it. I drove it for an additional 550K on top of the 230K it already had. I take care of my vehicles but this last Jimmy hasn't taken care of me! I look forward to the day that Toyota introduces a full size work van in the US. I just hope this POS Jimmy lasts that long cause I sure don't want to buy another one!:mad:
     
  20. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

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    You and me both Redwood. Toyota would steal an incredible amount of market share ... why they have not introduced this vehicle is puzzling? Perhaps they are worried of monopolizing the automotive business and decided to leave this slice of pie alone.
     
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