Should I stop water heater maintenance?

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MikeQ

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If you look at the photo of the roof, earlier in the thread, you can see how difficult it would be to accommodate solar panels. Roof pitch is very steep @ 20/12 and the 22 year old cedar shingles are attached to nailing strips and open to the attic below. Attachment would be extremely difficult and flashing next to impossible.
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True, that particular house is not a natural candidate for rooftop solar. It's certainly not a typical roof. I was responding to Dana's general claim that air sealing is the only energy upgrade that has a payback period of 5 years. I was simply pointing out it depends upon where one lives. I wouldn't put rooftop solar on a cedar roof (although some people do). It's kind of silly if you know anything about cedar roofs.
 

Dana

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True, in many areas it takes longer than 5 years. That's why I said "depending upon what area you live". Duh!

Defensive, much? :)

I don't know why you focus on non-typical buyers who want it removed, LOL! There are always going to be weirdo's or people who don't fall within the norm, what we are concerned with is does it make the average home worth more or less? And the answer from looking at a sample of hundreds of comparables is more.

The definition of "...-typical buyers..." is as broad as "...typical voters...". This is not rare.

In many markets there are a subset of buyers actively looking for PV already installed, in other markets rooftop PV is often viewed as a political statement that a large subset of local buyers will find offensive. Many HOA developments even ban PV on the street-facing side of the house.

By contrast air sealing (like insulation) does it's job unseen, though only rarely increases resale value.



If you have air conditioning, the length of the payback period is over-estimated because I've never seen one that took into account the reduction in cooling load that shading the roof provides.

If the attic is insulated to IRC code minimums the shading effect of PV shading a roof has only a very tiny effect on the peak or average cooling loads. Installing "cool roof" higher solar reflective index (SRI) roofing materials has a small but still larger effect on cooling loads than (not so high SRI) PV shading. In contrast, the effect of shading factors on WINDOWS is orders of magnitude larger. This is easily simulated by any number of modeling tools in commonly used by performance housing architects & engineers.


Yeah, well real-estate agents are generally not known as being the sharpest pencil in the room, LOL! Someone might take issue with the color you painted your house too. It's a fool's game to try to accommodate every weirdo out there - you have to go with the averages.

And those averages vary a lot by local markets, whether any given real estate agent is on top of it or not. My opinion of those agents may even be lower than yours (I have several relatives in that biz o_O ), but they DO generally track and understand features that add or subtract from local resale prices.

The number of real estate agents in my local market listing high efficiency cold climate heat pump systems as "electric heat" is many- this in a 25 cents/kwh residential retail market! While resistance electric heating borders on "unaffordable", the operational cost of reasonably designed cold climate heat pumps is substantially lower than the cost of heating with #2 oil or condensing propane in this market. But it adds effectively nothing to the resale value relative to a house with a fossil burner (any type or efficiency) for heat + split AC (any efficiency ) for mechanicals. This might no be true in other markets.

What's not so obvious is how quickly the payback period is shrinking. This is largely a function of the falling prices of panels and other components.

The pricing & payback trends on PV are quite obvious for people like you and me who pay attention to it. Political & fossil fuel industry disinformation campaigns have made it harder for the average person to stay on top of it. Politics (sometimes driven by local utilities) have also skewed the price of single family home rooftop PV to the high side relative to what it costs in some other first-world countries (is the US still a first world country?) such as Germany or Australia.
 

WorthFlorida

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Rooftop solar has become so inexpensive, it can payback in 5 years, depending upon which area of the country you live in. It also adds considerable resale value to the home because you can actually see it (unlike insulation, air sealing, etc.).

On this note those who do go with solar panels either a lease or purchase, the owner(s) are generally more adapt to technology and home improvements, therefore, their homes are generally better maintained. Well maintained homes sells faster and closer to the asking price, solar would have little or nothing to do with it. I would be on the fence if I were to purchase a resale with electric solar panels? A lot would be needed to looking into the roof condition, maintenance, warranty, contracts if any, and most other items that Dana had mentioned.
 

MikeQ

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On this note those who do go with solar panels either a lease or purchase, the owner(s) are generally more adapt to technology and home improvements, therefore, their homes are generally better maintained. Well maintained homes sells faster and closer to the asking price, solar would have little or nothing to do with it. I would be on the fence if I were to purchase a resale with electric solar panels? A lot would be needed to looking into the roof condition, maintenance, warranty, contracts if any, and most other items that Dana had mentioned.

No, you can choose to believe what you want but studies show that solar panels that come with the sale add significant value to the home.

I don't know why anyone would take issue with that because solar panels are well known to dramatically reduce (or even eliminate) electrical bills. People will pay more upfront for the savings the panels will provide over their rated lifetime of 25-30 years (which corresponds to the warranty). This is not only proven by actual studies - it's common sense (or should be).

A solar roof, made of glass roofing tiles fired in a kiln, such as the latest solar product added to the tesla family of energy products, adds even more value over a composition roof much in the same way that a slate or tile roof adds value. They last a very long time with minimal to no maintenance. They last so long you would probably choose to keep using it even after the electrical output has declined to 80% of it's original value. This is considered the "useful life" of solar panels and tile and is what the 25-30 year warranty is based upon. But the cells will continue to provide useful electricity for another 10-30 years, the fact that it might decline to 70% or even 60% of it's rating in that timespan does not change the fact that it's still creating a lot of free electricity.
 

WorthFlorida

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I truly believe that some day all new homes will have to have solar panels to meet future energy requirements. If you look at OUC web site, Which covers most of Orlando, Fl, by 2025 all coal plants will start shutting down and by 2028 all will be converted to gas. The goal is by 2050 all power will be non carbon emissions. It's a tall order and I'm sure all homes will need to be covered in panels either by code or incentives. My argument is just don't rely on that solar panels will dictate a higher value as a decision. Now some areas with very expensive electric rates may favor more value.

https://www.ouc.com/reliably-green/
 

Dana

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No, you can choose to believe what you want but studies show that solar panels that come with the sale add significant value to the home.

Show me those studies! Got links? Sure "...you can choose to..." simply repeat the assertion, but that isn't the same as evidence.

Yes, I know there are several that show on average (over the entire US market) at least a modest increase in resale value and in a few instances an increase in value in excess of the cost of installing them (after all rebates and incentives.) But that doesn't make it a slam dunk payoff in 5 years by any means.

I've read several such studies over the past handful of years, but there's a lot of cherry picking in most of them.

I don't know why anyone would take issue with that because solar panels are well known to dramatically reduce (or even eliminate) electrical bills. People will pay more upfront for the savings the panels will provide over their rated lifetime of 25-30 years (which corresponds to the warranty). This is not only proven by actual studies - it's common sense (or should be).

Not everybody cares more about the electric bill than the aesthetics of their roof. I personally know a family paying 28 cents/kwh to heat with electric baseboards in a house that has enough roof area to install 13kw (DC) of panel, in a utility market that even the $0 Tesla subscription solar is available, in a climate that would deliver 14-15 cents/kwh out of the array. They are aware of it, but won't do it. (You can lead a horse to water... I even ran a heat load and specified heat pumps capable of serving that load that would pay for themselves in less than 5 years too, which they have also opted not to move on.) This isn't an isolated instance. If they DID take the advice offered on both the heat pumps & PV they would be nearly net-zero energy on a crappy 2x4 framed late 1970s raised ranch even without going crazy on upgrading the insulation or windows, largely due to the near-perfect roof angle & orientation + optimal shading factors.)

Bottom line- just because YOU (or I) "...don't know why anyone would take issue..." with it doesn't mean those people don't exist, or that they are few in number.

A solar roof, made of glass roofing tiles fired in a kiln, such as the latest solar product added to the tesla family of energy products, adds even more value over a composition roof much in the same way that a slate or tile roof adds value. They last a very long time with minimal to no maintenance. They last so long you would probably choose to keep using it even after the electrical output has declined to 80% of it's original value. This is considered the "useful life" of solar panels and tile and is what the 25-30 year warranty is based upon. But the cells will continue to provide useful electricity for another 10-30 years, the fact that it might decline to 70% or even 60% of it's rating in that timespan does not change the fact that it's still creating a lot of free electricity.

Tesla's solar roof tiles are WAY more expensive than asphalt composite shingles + Tesla's standard solar panels. Furthermore they aren't cheap or easy to install on roofs with hips or valleys. They can make sense relative to new tile or slate roofing on rooflines that are simple gables, but installation costs soar when there are lots of dormers/hips/valleys (as is true for non-PV ceramic or slate roofs.)
 

Paul Muehleip

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One thing to try if you haven't kept up with flushing your water heater every year is to use a water heater cleaning tool. The way these work is that they are inserted into the drain valve and rotated with a drill. The drill will spin an agitator that extracts the sediment out. This works a lot better for removing difficult build ups.

 
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