Shallow Well Jet Pump Recommendations?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by HiQ, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Jan 4, 2017
    Location:
    Manitoba
    I'm a jet pump newbie and I desperately need some help with shallow well jet pump recommendations.

    We purchased an acreage with a dug well (3' ish culvert looking pipe vertically down into the ground) that is our only source of water. The current pump is a Jacuzzi (now Franklin?) 7C-S single pipe setup (shallow). It has been getting progressively louder in the year we have owned this place and I assume it is starting to go (date stamp is 1996 or something like that).

    I would love to move to a submersible, but I honestly have no clue what the dug well depth is or how much water there is. That is something I can look into when summer rolls around and I can get some measurements done.

    The Jacuzzi pumps into a pressure tank with the following specs:
    AquaFlo #144
    44G
    max working pressure 100 psi
    factory recharge 38 psi
    drawdown 11.9 gas @ 40/60 psi

    I did some tests with one shower running. Nothing else was using water. The shower would run for 2 mins 45 seconds before pressure would drop from 58 psi to 40 psi and kick on the pump. The pump would run for 50 seconds bringing the pressure back up to 58 psi (while the shower continued to run).

    Anyways, hopefully that's enough to get some sort of recommendation on a replacement pump. I'd like to swap the Jacuzzi out for now with a new pump and keep it as a backup once it's rebuilt (new bearings?).

    I have heard that Goulds and Sta-Rite make good pumps. I was looking at a Goulds J7S, but then I started wondering if there was a reason to move to a 1HP pump (mainly because the price difference between the 3/4 and 1HP wasn't much at all). Would moving to a 1HP be a good idea? I assume it'd just provide more GPM if we somehow were to max out the 3/4HP and otherwise run for a shorter cycle time.

    I'm completely open to shallow well jet pump recommendations in either 3/4HP or 1HP (if you think it'd be a good idea). Thanks everyone!
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    My favorite would be a Goulds J7S (3/4) or a J10S (1HP). I like the higher pressure these pumps can build. Your 3/4HP is cycling on and off while taking shower. The larger the pump, the faster it would cycle, which is not good for the pump.

    The shower pressure would be much stronger if it had a constant 50 PSI, than when cycling back and forth between 40 and 58. So if you use a Cycle Stop Valve to hold a constant 50 PSI, you can use as large a pump as you want. The CSV will not let the pump cycle, and the shower pressure will be greatly improved.

    A larger pump is good for times when you need more water. But when just using a small amount like a shower, the larger the pump the worse the cycling, unless you have a CSV.

    I would use a J10S with a CSV1A set for a constant 55 PSI and a 40/60 pressure switch setting.
     
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  4. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    valveman: Thank you very much for your reply. So you would spend the extra $32 moving to the 1HP from the 3/4HP?

    In regards to cycles hurting pumps, is the issue the shorter run time or the time in between cycles or both?

    If I keep the current 44G pressure tank (adding the CSV), the pump will have to draw down to 40 PSI before kicking back in and holding 50 until water usage stops then going up to 60 before turning off. The larger tank will allow some water usage between cycles without having the pump run constantly for any small water use. So the only issue would be the first 0-3 minutes in the shower when the pressure is dropping from a potential max of 60 down to 40 before the pump kicks in?

    I was hoping to limit the runtime of the pump as it is pretty central in the basement and you can hear it from every single room. Hence why I would ideally love a submersible, but I don’t know enough about the well yet. What are the minimum requirements on a dug well to be able to run a sub in it? Assuming I hit the requirements, I would only have to get 220v to the well location? Would it make sense to go down to a 4.5G pressure tank (pside-kick perhaps) vs the 44G if I get sub setup as I then wouldn’t care about the pump running)?

    I would like to wait until spring (3-4 months) so I can make a more educated decision on jet vs sub, but what are the odds my loud (potentially failing) jet pump will make it there? I really don’t want to be scrambling to just buy anything and end up grossly overpaying or buying a cheap temp solution.

    Oh the joys of country living :)
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    You could probably just have the bearings in the motor replaced and it will be more quite. A little back pressure from a CSV usually quietens them down a little as well, but it will be running more of the time. You can also put the pump on some rubber feet, and maybe add a short piece of rubber hose to the discharge side of the pump to keep the sound from transferring down the line.

    A sub would be much better, but you will need at least 4' of water to put it in. And that is cutting it close.

    As long as the 44 gallon tank is still good, I would use it. But when it fails there is absolutely no reason to go back with such a large tank when using a CSV.

    I have explained it every way I can think of. But with the 1 gallon draw from the 4.5 gallon tank, and the run time to refill it using a CSV, there really is no way to short cycle the pump. The pump will run when you are using water. It will be off when you are not using water. And for those intermittent uses the 1 gallon draw and refill time from the CSV will make sure there are no short cycles in the meantime.

    Your very worst case scenario for cycling is having a 1/2 GPM continuous leak that you cannot find and fix. This will take 2 minutes to drain the water from the 1 gallon tank, and another 2 minutes to fill and shut off the pump. That would be 2 minutes on and 2 minutes off, which any pump company will tell you is perfectly acceptable. They only require 1 minute on and 1 minute off. 2 on and 2 off is even better.

    But if you really cannot find and fix the leak, this is a situation where a larger tank would be helpful. Even though the pump companies say 1 on and 1 off is fine, I don't even like the 2 on and 2 off on a continuous basis. But unless you have a small leak you cannot fix, a larger tank is unnecessary and a waste of money. With normal everyday use, there really is no way to short cycle a pump with a CSV and a small tank.
     
  6. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    So speedy! Thanks again valveman. Maybe I'll cross my fingers and wait till spring so I can examine the dug well. I'd really love to get a sub in there with a CSV. Any issues with a sub freezing up in Canada? We routinely see -30*C through the winter. Also, would it be best to put the CSV inside the house where the water enters or on top of the sub in the well?

    If I'm trenching in the wire anyways, do most people put in a larger conduit so I could run a new water line if I had to in the future? Or just run it along with the wire immediately so it's already there if I need it. I assume it'd only cost a couple hundred dollars more and I'd be set if anything happened in the future.

    I'll definitely be posting again in the spring/summer for sub details. Thanks again!
     
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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  8. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The sub will be submerged, it will not freeze. The pipes coming out of the pump will freeze just like the ones from the jet pump. The CSV has to be installed before any water lines tee off. So if you tee off before the line gets to the house, the CSV needs to be first thing out of the well. But if all the water comes to the house before any tees, the CSV can be at the house before the pressure tank.

    I don't like to put my wire and water line in the same conduit. They get in the way of each other and the water line may move around and run on the electric wires.
     
  9. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Excellent! Thank you both. Looks like I'm hoping spring/summer comes early so I can dig a trench :p
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Does anybody ever use a pitless to a horizontal submersible at the bottom of a 36 inch dug well? I think that would be tricky to mount right, but a B10X type would be handier than having to deal with an elbow if you every wanted to pull the pump. I don't know how you would mount it however.

    HiQ, a good common size for your pump could be 1/2 HP 1o GPM. They are available in "110" or "220" (used with 120VAC or 240 VAC typically)

    Example: Grundfos 10S05-9 is 23.0 inches long.
     
  11. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Okay so I have a shop that's max 70' away from the dug well with 100amp service to it. The house is quite a bit further and probably follows a lot of other lines/pipes so trenching to there might have to be hand done. I'm thinking I'll pull power from the shop for the sub (fingers crossed the dug well will support one). I could easily run either 2 or 3 wire (control box in shop) and 110 or 220. Any recommendations? I've heard 3 wire don't really offer much advantage in smaller pumps (especially if easy to access) and 220 is the way to go (less wear/tear on motor?). Thoughts?
     
  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    For a 1/2 HP pump, I would go 2-wire. The 3 wire pumps typically cost a little less, but not after you price in the box. 3-wire pumps do offer a little more starting torque, but to me that starting torque might translate into more torque movement.

    I don't think Valveman was recomending against the wire being in the same trench as the pipe. Your water line would be about 5 ft down, and your wire at least 2 ft typically.

    220VAC loses half as much power in the wires with the same size wire, and/or lets you use smaller wire.

    Remember that for 3-wire pump you actually have 4 wires including the protective ground wire.

    Poly pipe would often be used for this-- ASTM D2239 where IPS ID is held to match the barbs, and OD varies with PSI ratings.
     
  13. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Ah good call on the torque movement considering this is just going to be laying on its side in the bottom on some PVC risers.

    Yes I realized he wasn't recommending against the same trench, just the same conduit. I just got to thinking and the shop is closer (less wire and voltage drop) and still has sufficient amps to spare. I should be able to handle a 2' deep wire trench over the 65 ish feet. 220 seems like the way to go. I'll probably run 12/2 or 14/2 NMWU wire in a 1" pvc conduit or something like that.

    There is currently 1-1/4 poly pipe from the well to the house for the jet pump that will get reused with the sub.

    But now that I'm considering this project, it might also be time to get a water line to my shop (no supply currently). I could dig the wire trench to 5' and run another poly pipe to it. I would have to tee off the main line coming out of the sub after the check valve and CSV. I would also probably have to add a T valve after the initial tee to gravity empty that line back into the well in fall (don't keep the shop heated and wouldn't want it freezing up). Any easier way of doing that or will I have to raise up the line and open the valve in the fall and then lower it back down so it drains/empties. Then close it in the spring (I guess I wouldn't have to prime anything as it'll be a sub). Any great ideas on that part of this little endeavour?
     
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Most would just use underground feeder wire without conduit.

    Your power goes through the pressure switch. You need a pressure tank at the pressure switch. Your pressure tank must not be in a place that freezes, although they are sometimes put underground where heated space is at a premium. The best pressure regulation will be at the pressure switch and pressure tank. Are you planning to run water to the shop?

    With a 1/2 HP, you will use a 15 amp 240 v breaker. You can go 400 ft each way with #14 AWG wire, and 650 with #12. For such info, I suggest you look at the Franklin AIM manual.

    For the flow inducer sleeve either of these would be good:

    Solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056
    Schedule 40: OD 4.500 ID 4.026

    Since you are not trying to fit this down a casing, the bigger OD of schedule 40 is not a problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  15. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Good call on the UF wire. I'll have to double check the codes up here in Canada, but that'd save me having to deal with conduit. I think it's allowable, but might have to be much deeper than 18".

    Durrr... Totally spaced on the pressure switch. I assumed it could be in the dug well with the sub, but then it would be monitoring the pressure through the whole 1-1/4" poly run and then to the pressure tank. I assume that's less than ideal? I might be running the cable from the house after all.

    Yeah I figured 14/2 would be plenty. Looks like even if I went way up in pump size I'd still be good with 14/2 over my length.
     
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    1-1/4 is pretty big, so that would probably be fine. Is that well house space freeze-proof?

    Looking around , I see http://www.airdrie.ca/getDocument.cfm?ID=952 says you have to take extra steps without the conduit. That may not apply to your area...

    Maybe while putting wires in, you might want to add a convenience outdoor outlet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  17. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Yeah the pressure switch needs to stay close to the pressure tank. You might consider something like my PK1A kit with the little 4.5 gallon tank. The whole kit will fit in a 24X14X14 (inches) space, which might fit at the well. Then your pressure switch would also be at the well location.
     
  18. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Reach4: Thanks for that document. Looks like I have a little more work if I want to save laying down conduit. Might be easier to just run a 3/4" or 1" pvc and be done with it. If I end up needing to run it from the house (not the shop), it'll be a little different as it goes under a lane way too. Sigh.

    When I say house, I don't mean well house. I mean my actual residence. The 1-1/4 poly line currently comes out of the approximately 3' wide dug well and into my basement. There it has a shallow well jet pump (hoping to replace with sub).

    In a perfect world I could run the non-switched feed wire from the shop (not heated). Then have the pressure switch in the dug well. I'm indifferent as to whether the pressure tank is in the house or the dug well, but I assume it wouldn't be good if it froze. Can the pressure switch even be in the freezing cold dug well or no? If not, I'll have to run the switched wire from the house and leave the pressure switch/tank in the house. Just a longer run to trench for the wire, but would be safer as far as freezing.
     
  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    That makes a big difference. So your no-drilling-under road choices include
    1. pside-kick in a new well house
    2. CSV125 (maybe 60 PSI version) down the well under water, tee poly to heated shop, and put small pressure tank and pressure switch there. I am not sure of the needed size.
    3. underground pressure tank with special pressure switch near the well or anywhere along the pipe. Bury under sand to make digging up later easier. There are pressure switches where the pressure passes through a freeze free control fluid to the actual pressure switch, which can be in freezing.
    4. dig underground pit for stuff. Pits used to be more popular. Flooding can be a problem.
    By "lane" I am figuring a paved public road that requires permits. If it is a gravel driveway, maybe trenching through that would not be so bad.
     
  20. HiQ

    HiQ New Member

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    Sorry.. I did just mean a gravel/dirt driveway to the shop. I'm guessing the cleanest option here is just trench the switched wire from the house and have a side-kick in the basement. Just a lot longer of a trench job, but I'm sure it can be done. Hopefully having a sub and no jet pump noise in the house is worth it in the long run :p

    Only other option would to tee off the line and run one to the small shed we have 50' from the well. Then insulate a portion of it and keep it warm with a small heater of some sort to keep the pside-kick in there. Seems like a lot more potential issues just to avoid trenching the full run to the house though.
     
  21. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Yep. One less place to keep warm.
     
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