Shallow Well Help

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Justwater

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..... good luck.

I'll bet you $1100 I can fix your well and get you sand-free clear water pumping again. i'll warranty if for 3 yrs but it will last as long as pvc pipe lasts. if its a shallow screen well or a "mud well" u don't owe me a dime. If I can't fix it u don't owe me a dime. just a thought.
 
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Rwbil

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..... good luck.

I'll bet you $1100 I can fix your well and get you sand-free clear water pumping again. i'll warranty if for 3 yrs but it will last as long as pvc pipe lasts. if its a shallow screen well or a "mud well" u don't owe me a dime. If I can't fix it u don't owe me a dime. just a thought.

I think this well is "DEAD". I took your advice and had to go down about 60' with the 1" piping (water hose attached). Here is what happened. The first 25' or so the pipe just dropped down. After that I could tell I was working through sand. I add extensions as I needed them. At around that 60' point I hit something solid, not sand. It felt like it might be part of that 2" casing. I was able to play with the pipe and work around that solid piece and go a few inches further and then hit something else solid that I could not go through (Definitely not sand). At that point the 2" casing final took water. Water went down for the 1st time. But the second I pulled up on the 1" pipe sand filled in and everything stopped flowing again.

Maybe I could leave that 1" pipe down 60'. but I do not think my jet pump would work or it might not be good for the jet pump.

On your proposal, what exactly would you install. I want a shallow well that will work with my jet pump and I am not looking to spend alot. If it gets to expensive I would look at other options whereby I do not even need a well pump. Exactly what do you charge and exactly what do you provide at that price. Galvanized Steel or PVC. Type of check valve and etc.

Right now I am thinking I need to try and install another shallow well several feet from that well.

The one thing I am still not sure about is the problem a 2" casing issue, which means I could dig another well in the same area or do I have to dig much further away.
 
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Justwater

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60'? What do u know, i might actually know what I'm talking about. could have 60' of casing and the rock pecked out rather than drilled.. It was common practice with wells older than about 25 yrs. Or there's even a chance your well is deeper but someone dropped an old drop pipe in the bottom and rather than get it out they just installed another. Slim chance but I've seen alot of crazy things. Even with the pipe down 60', the water level is still shallow table, not sure how to make u understand this.

Another shallow well? Ur well is not a shallow well if u got down 60'. you may or may not be able to even get a shallow screened well where u are.

There is no well you could install that wouldn't require a pump of some kind. Even artesian freeflowing wells needs a pump as they only have about 6-8psi on them.

my proposal is just what I said.. to fix your well and get clear water back pumping.
 
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LLigetfa

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Maybe I could leave that 1" pipe down 60'. but I do not think my jet pump would work or it might not be good for the jet pump...

I don't think you understand how shallow well jet pumps work. It's not about how deep you set the footvalve. It's all about were the static water table sits. My father's 120 foot deep well used a shallow well jet pump.

There has to be a reason your well is 60 feet deep so I doubt you can just drive a new sandpoint next to it.
 

Rwbil

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I don't think you understand how shallow well jet pumps work. It's not about how deep you set the footvalve. It's all about were the static water table sits. My father's 120 foot deep well used a shallow well jet pump.

There has to be a reason your well is 60 feet deep so I doubt you can just drive a new sandpoint next to it.

The problem is the bottom of that 60' 2" casing is full of dirt, clay, sand or whatever blocking free water flow. I could spend more time and money trying to rig up something to pump all that out, but if the 2" casing is letting in sand and etc. then that would only be a short term fix. I do not think I would be able to seal that 2" pipe, but I would have to research that more.

I know others have jetted a shallow well in my area, so I think I would at least give it a try.

Maybe I will find out a shallow well point will not work in my area and that is why they had to create that 60' casing. Unfortunately I have no history on the home and why they did what they did.

In researching shallow and deep well, I have not seen my configuration. Do you know why one would install a 60' 2" casing, maybe down to rock and then install a 30' 1" PVC pipe inside that 2" pipe.
 

Rwbil

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60'? What do u know, i might actually know what I'm talking about. could have 60' of casing and the rock pecked out rather than drilled.. It was common practice with wells older than about 25 yrs. Or there's even a chance your well is deeper but someone dropped an old drop pipe in the bottom and rather than get it out they just installed another. Slim chance but I've seen alot of crazy things. Even with the pipe down 60', the water level is still shallow table, not sure how to make u understand this.

Another shallow well? Ur well is not a shallow well if u got down 60'. you may or may not be able to even get a shallow screened well where u are.

There is no well you could install that wouldn't require a pump of some kind. Even artesian freeflowing wells needs a pump as they only have about 6-8psi on them.

my proposal is just what I said.. to fix your well and get clear water back pumping.

I am a bit slow, but finally understand what you are saying. As for the pump I meant I could look into other options such that I do not need a well at all.

The only thing I am not sure about is sealing that 2" casing. I did not see anything at Home Depot or Lowes that could accomplish that. I started researching it on the web, but have not found much. I did find one video where he installed several leathers at different heights. I think I could do that. Now that I see what they look like I can check Home Depot and Lowes again. One question. If I installed the pipe with the leathers and they stop any sediment from dropping, then couldn't I install a well point at the bottom of my PVC pipe. Also is there a way to tell where the break is in order to know where to place the leathers.

Right now I am hoping and preying I can jet a new shallow well.

As I replied in another post, do you know why one would install a 60' 2" casing with a 30' 1" PVC pipe. Under what circumstance would you do that? Can there be something at the water table level that could make it necessary to do this?
 
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LLigetfa

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The jury is still out on whether your well goes into bedrock or into a sand/gravel aquifer above the bedrock. It could be that the casing rotted out letting in sand or the sand could be coming up from the bottom of the casing. It could be that the well worked OK for years and then you pumped at a higher GPM and mobilized the sand. If it is a 60 foot mud well, setting the footvalve at 30 feet lets mud collect below it eventually stopping it up.

My well is 52 feet and stops a foot above the bedrock. I've had problems with mud coming up the casing and reducing the recovery rate. The difference is my casing is 6", not 2" like yours. I've since cleared out the mud and developed the well so it is no longer a problem.

My father's 120 foot deep well was 2" casing and we put the footvalve at the very bottom, otherwise mud could get sucked up into the casing as yours did.
 

LLigetfa

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As I replied in another post, do you know why one would install a 60' 2" casing with a 30' 1" PVC pipe. Under what circumstance would you do that? Can there be something at the water table level that could make it necessary to do this?
It could be that they had to go down 60 feet to reach a better aquifer. It could be that the material nearer to the surface was unsuitable and they wanted to get past it.

As for why they set the footvalve at 30 feet, it was probably frugality and laziness.
 

Justwater

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2" steel wells with 25-30' drop pipes with foot valve on the bottom is extremely common for this area. Everything now is becoming 4" PVC, but those wells were the norm for a long time. your setup isn't rare, quite the opposite. A rock well in this area doesn't need a screen before the pump as it shouldn't pump trash.

as I posted earlier, PVC drop pipes are used inside 2" steel wells because it's much more reliable than pulling strait off the 2" steel pipe.

no lligetfa... 30' PVC drop pipes are used because shallow jet pumps cant pull past 25', so setting a foot valve any deeper is only a waste of PVC pipe. Not sure how they do things in canada, but I have a pretty good idea how they are done where I am. get off the mud well, there is no such thing in these parts. He has a standard 2" well set in rock and the casing is rusted out letting sand in.. Like I said, I'll bet 1100$ on it. From where I sit, it seems lligetfa should have set casing on the bedrock and drill it out (if the rock has water) and he might have a halfway descent well. but that's canada and I'm in NE Fl.
 
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LLigetfa

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From where I sit, it seems lligetfa should have set casing on the bedrock and drill it out (if the rock has water) and he might have a halfway descent well..
Ja, and at $48 per foot, my neighbor went down more than 300 feet to hit water and even at that, had to frac it to get enough recovery. I can live with my mud well at that price even if I wear out a pump or two.
 

Rwbil

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2" steel wells with 25-30' drop pipes with foot valve on the bottom is extremely common for this area. Everything now is becoming 4" PVC, but those wells were the norm for a long time. your setup isn't rare, quite the opposite. A rock well in this area doesn't need a screen before the pump as it shouldn't pump trash.

as I posted earlier, PVC drop pipes are used inside 2" steel wells because it's much more reliable than pulling strait off the 2" steel pipe.

no lligetfa... 30' PVC drop pipes are used because shallow jet pumps cant pull past 25', so setting a foot valve any deeper is only a waste of PVC pipe. Not sure how they do things in canada, but I have a pretty good idea how they are done where I am. get off the mud well, there is no such thing in these parts. He has a standard 2" well set in rock and the casing is rusted out letting sand in.. Like I said, I'll bet 1100$ on it. From where I sit, it seems lligetfa should have set casing on the bedrock and drill it out (if the rock has water) and he might have a halfway descent well. but that's canada and I'm in NE Fl.

Now that I have a better understand of everything, I have 5 questions:

1) Earlier you mentioned using the 1" pipe and seals. Is there a reason after I pumped out all the sand not to go ahead and install a 1.25" pipe and seal? One concern is I could not find inside couplers for the 1" pipe. Maybe that does not matter, but the outside couplers are shorter and I was a little worried that when bending that pipe to get it in, I might be weakening that coupler area. Plus to use the leather seals I saw I would need to use inside couplers or at least it looked that way to me at first glance.

2) You mentioned in one post setting the seal 20'-30' above the casing depth. Should I not try and get this seal as close to the bottom as possible. And should I put in several seals at various heights as backup.

3) Once I put in my 1" or 1.25" pipe with seals and I go back and use a foot valve and if I have problems with the foot valve sometime in the future, would I be able to get that pipe back out.

4) This might still reflect my lack of knowledge in this area, but does it make a difference (outside the seal depth placement issue) how deep the 1" or 1.25" pipe goes down? Any advantage to putting it 60' vs 30'? I assume in this case where I need the seal to go down as far as possible I would want the pipe to go down as far as possible.

5) Another novice question, couldn't the pump, pump out all the water in the pipe and then it would have to wait for the water to flow back in through the two inch hole in the bottom.
 
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Masterpumpman

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Around most of Jacksonville there is shallow water in sand just like here in Virginia Beach. By your photos your well is a 2" driven well with galvanized pipe and a 3 or 5 foot sand point on the end. These wells last about 20 years give or take 10 years. Pumpung some sand in the past tells me that your well has died. You could connect a pitcher pump (Northern Tools) on right at the well and if it can't pump water your well is plugged and dead.
I would forget all that and wash down a new well using PVC pipe a slotted 3 or 5 foot well screen with a Sand Shark on the end and wash it down with a gasoline contractors pump. Once you notice that it's taking lots of water to wash down or the drilling water just goes away you've probably encountered a good sand producing formation. Hopefully this will be some where below 20 feet. when you feel you have hit water connect the contractors pump suction to the well and pump it off. If you have plenty of water connect your existing pump back to the new well with a check valve in between. NOTE: I love PVC check valves as they usually requiring replacement in one year.
NOTE: If you wash down a new well, I suggest that you stay as far from the old well as possible (at least 10 feet) and cut off the old pipe below ground fill it with neat cement or better yet "Bentonite to prevent the contaminiting your new well. This is usually required by the well regulators.

Prior to doing all of the above you may or may not want to check with a licensed driller or lastly the local health department to see what the well regulations are (I won't advise you against contacting the Regulators)! However I think any new or replacement well will have to be a minimum of 20' from any buildings, burried septic lines, septic or fuel tanks and maybe 30' from the Bay or Inlet. Since you are replacing a defunct well a well a well permit shouldn't cost you anything! However the regulators may require you to get a well application and file a completion report. Play dumb if you choose not to contact the Regulators.
However if a licensed well driller drills your well he will first have to have a well permit and file a Completion Report.
Be patient, have fun and don't mash, break or cut off any extreamities. I could right a book on people digging, drilling, driving and washing in their own wells. Drilling and driving/washing wells is an Art.
 

LLigetfa

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5) Another novice question, couldn't the pump, pump out all the water in the pipe and then it would have to wait for the water to flow back in through the two inch hole in the bottom.
The top of your well casing was sealed air-tight, so it was not possible to draw down the water in the casing.
 

Rwbil

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Around most of Jacksonville there is shallow water in sand just like here in Virginia Beach. By your photos your well is a 2" driven well with galvanized pipe and a 3 or 5 foot sand point on the end. These wells last about 20 years give or take 10 years. Pumpung some sand in the past tells me that your well has died. You could connect a pitcher pump (Northern Tools) on right at the well and if it can't pump water your well is plugged and dead.
I would forget all that and wash down a new well using PVC pipe a slotted 3 or 5 foot well screen with a Sand Shark on the end and wash it down with a gasoline contractors pump. Once you notice that it's taking lots of water to wash down or the drilling water just goes away you've probably encountered a good sand producing formation. Hopefully this will be some where below 20 feet. when you feel you have hit water connect the contractors pump suction to the well and pump it off. If you have plenty of water connect your existing pump back to the new well with a check valve in between. NOTE: I love PVC check valves as they usually requiring replacement in one year.
NOTE: If you wash down a new well, I suggest that you stay as far from the old well as possible (at least 10 feet) and cut off the old pipe below ground fill it with neat cement or better yet "Bentonite to prevent the contaminiting your new well. This is usually required by the well regulators.

Prior to doing all of the above you may or may not want to check with a licensed driller or lastly the local health department to see what the well regulations are (I won't advise you against contacting the Regulators)! However I think any new or replacement well will have to be a minimum of 20' from any buildings, burried septic lines, septic or fuel tanks and maybe 30' from the Bay or Inlet. Since you are replacing a defunct well a well a well permit shouldn't cost you anything! However the regulators may require you to get a well application and file a completion report. Play dumb if you choose not to contact the Regulators.
However if a licensed well driller drills your well he will first have to have a well permit and file a Completion Report.
Be patient, have fun and don't mash, break or cut off any extreamities. I could right a book on people digging, drilling, driving and washing in their own wells. Drilling and driving/washing wells is an Art.

Deciding on whether to continue to try and fix the old well or drill a new one is a tough decision. It really depends on knowing exactly what is there now and exactly what has happened. If Justwater is correct and it is a 60' pipe into rocks and that pipe is letting in sand, then it makes since to see if I can locate those leather seals and try and suck out the sand currently in the pipe and try and seal that pipe with a 1 or 1.25" pipe inside.

I tried the pitcher pump thing, but the well does trickle out water as I showed in a previous photo, so I go some water to come out with the pitcher pump.

When you state the well has died. What exactly do you mean? If you are correct and there is a sandpoint on the end of that 2" pipe (and the pipe is not into a rockbed) and it is damaged and allowing in sand, then I would have to drill another well.

You stated to be 10' from the other well. This is just my lack of knowledge and curiousity about wells, but what exactly do you believe happened to the well that the new well must be 10' away.
 
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LLigetfa

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BTW, here is a good article from Brady on how to washdown (jet) a sandpoint inside a 2" casing. If inside couplers are used, I doubt the sand would Chinese handcuff the PVC as was suggested. I don't think the cost would be so high as not to try it down your existing casing.

If your casing is seated into bedrock or stops at the bedrock so as to not allow the sandpoint to go past the end of the casing, it might reduce the GPM you can pull from it since the space between the sandpoint and the casing is small and sand will further constrict it. It all depends on how coarse the sand is.

http://www.campbellmfg.com/brady/documents/wellinstallation.pdf
 

Rwbil

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BTW, here is a good article from Brady on how to washdown (jet) a sandpoint inside a 2" casing. If inside couplers are used, I doubt the sand would Chinese handcuff the PVC as was suggested. I don't think the cost would be so high as not to try it down your existing casing.

If your casing is seated into bedrock or stops at the bedrock so as to not allow the sandpoint to go past the end of the casing, it might reduce the GPM you can pull from it since the space between the sandpoint and the casing is small and sand will further constrict it. It all depends on how coarse the sand is.

http://www.campbellmfg.com/brady/documents/wellinstallation.pdf

I have looked at that Brady tool, but I did not like the fact it had 2 3/4" pipes feeding a single 3/4" pipe. Seemed like a restriction to me. I think I will make one where the two pipes feed a 2" coupler.

But first I am still playing with my original well. I know 99% of the well diggers would say my well is dead and just want to drill a new one, but I am giving this old well one last chance.

I started to pump out the sand Today. Not done completely yet. But I did get my pump to pump up water. Though not at full rate yet. My goal is to pump all the sand out. If I can do that I will then put a new foot valve on that 1" pipe and set it at the 30' mark. I do not want to set it all the way down in case the sand is coming in fast, I might not be able to get the pipe back out.

Yes I know this is a temporary fix that might last minutes, days, months or years depending on how fast the sand is coming in. But I hope it will last long enough that I can do some more research on the leather seals Justwater mentioned or time to try and jet a new well in.

One thing I do not like about the 1" pipe is I could not find inside couplers so I using those short outside couplers and when I bend the pipe to put in in those couplers take a lot of abuse. One blew out on me. Do they make longer outside couplers for 1" piping?
 
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Rwbil

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I have to ask what i floating on the water here, is that actually oil?

Not sure. That was right after I pulled the drop pipe. Might be issues with camera producing color exactly. But if it had been oil I would not be fixing this well myself.
 
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Rwbil

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Justwater,

Now that I almost gut the sand out and the pump is pumping up water, want would you charge to set the seal?

I will PM you.

Also I am curious about something else you stated. Why when they drill a shallow well do they use a 1.25" pipe but on this well configuration they use a 1" pipe. Wouldn't a 1.25" provide more water flow and after spending all that money on the 60' of steel, why would they save money on the PVC piping?
 
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Justwater

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1.25" fittings and foot valves can sometimes get stuck in old 2" wells and not want to come out... so 1" is normally used.
 
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