Seeking advice for replacing main shutoff. Okay to use sharkbite?

[Jppenner]

Hello all. My main shutoff does not fully shut off the water and the Pressure Reducing Valve immediately after it is looking pretty bad (pictures attached). There is also a check valve immediately before the main shutoff. They are around 50 years old so I was thinking I should just change the entire setup. Also, I will eventually be changing the plumbing downstream and was planning to use PEX. So I am just looking for some advice on what I should do here.

To change the valve I need to get the city to send someone to turn it off at the meter. In order to make it a single trip for them, my plan was to just have them shutoff the water, I would quickly cut the pipe and throw on a sharkbite elbow then a ball valve and then they could just turn the water back on and I could continue at my leisure. However, if that sharkbite were to ever fail I would have full city pressure pouring into my house and the only way to stop it would be for the city to send someone out to turn off at the meter. I was thinking in order to add extra protection I could block the elbow against the inside of a joist so that water pressure could never push the sharkbite off. I was thinking to use an elbow that was sharkbite at one end and threaded at the other so then I could just thread in my check valve and main shutoff and use brass nipples to connect them, eventually adapting to PEX.

1. Is it okay to use a sharkbite immediately off the incoming line before the main shutoff like I am planning, or should this always be soldered?
2. If the answer to 1 is soldered, should I solder the valve directly or can I solder a PEX adapter and then install the valve with PEX?
3. There is currently a check valve right before the main shutoff. Does it need to be before the main shutoff or can I install it after the main?

thank you,
-jeff

 

[John Gayewski]

Sharkbite would say it's OK. A plumber would mostly say no. I sweated mine when I was in your situation but pro press would be second choice and just as quick. Find a hardware store that'll rent you a pro press gun and do your thing with that.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Compression is another option that can tolerate a slight leak and presence of water.

I would think sweating might be hard due to the presence of water.

I note what I suspect is a check valve right before your existing valve.

Is your water coming in through the rim joist? Are you in a warm part of Vancouver?

 

[Jppenner]

Yes, it is coming in through the rim joist. It is pretty mild but definitely drops below freezing a few times per year.

I agree that it would likely take some time to let the water drain, plus the job would take too long that I doubt he would want to stay while I did it so it would mean arranging having him come back to turn the water on again. This is why I was hoping the sharkbite would work and I could do the entire thing in a couple minutes. I am not worried about a little leak but I am worried about a complete failure of the sharkbite. This is why I was thinking if I braced it against the joist there would be no way it could ever slip off.

Yes, I mentioned there was a check valve before the main. That was actually the third question in my list of questions, do I have to put the new check valve before the main shutoff or can it go after the main shutoff?

thank you,
-jeff

 

[Jppenner]

I have never heard of ProPress but I am watching a bunch of videos on it now. I checked the home depot tool rental site and they do not seem to have it.

 

[Reach4]

3. There is currently a check valve right before the main shutoff. Does it need to be before the main shutoff or can I install it after the main?

Your water meter may already have a check valve built in. I don't know what your local requirements might be for you providing a check valve. While you are thinking about check valves, you might check your thermal expansion tank. It should be empty of water normally.


I would consider making the cut in the soft copper pipe the next joist bay to the right, where you have more room. It would let you have more room for a press tool, and it would leave you more pipe in case you want to make another change at a later date.

I have never heard of ProPress but I am watching a bunch of videos on it now. I checked the home depot tool rental site and they do not seem to have it.

As a generic term, you often see "press" rather than ProPress.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=press valve
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-CPTLKIT-Copper-Press-Tool-w-1-2-3-4-1-Jaws

PRESSFAST Hydraulic Copper Press Tool for 1/2 in., 3/4 in., and 1 in. Fittings With Relief Valve XPRTOOL - The Home Depot

The PressFast Hydraulic Copper Press Tool for 1/2 in. 3/4 in. and 1 in. Fittings With Relief Valve is an essential labor saving tool. Unlike traditional hand tools, which rely on the principle of leverage

www.homedepot.com

 

[JohnCT]

As long as it's not buried, a SB will work fine IMO although my preference would be sweated copper.

I've never seen a SB fail catastrophically as long as they're installed properly - mark the pipe for insertion depth and make sure the bite is fully seated. On those corners in dark tight areas, it's not difficult to place the bite and not have it fully seat.

John

 

[Jppenner]

Your water meter may already have a check valve built in. I don't know what your local requirements might be for you providing a check valve. While you are thinking about check valves, you might check your thermal expansion tank. It should be empty of water normally.


I would consider making the cut in the soft copper pipe the next joist bay to the right, where you have more room. It would let you have more room for a press tool, and it would leave you more pipe in case you want to make another change at a later date.

That is a great point, I will check with the city. The water meter would have been installed much more recently than the check valve in the house so there may not be any need for a check valve inside the house anymore.

I am not aware of any thermal expansion tank in the house, there isn't one at either of the hot water tanks.

Definitely using the next joist bay would be easier. I was thinking the first position because there I could use the joist as a natural barrier to prevent the sharkbite from slipping off. In the second bay the pipe has dipped below the joist so the elbow would not be braced up against anything. But if I am using a propress connector then I could just do it in the middle of the bay without having to worry about it slipping off. However, at that point the pipe is no longer running horizontal so a 90 degree elbow would not be pointing vertical.

 

[Reach4]

I am not aware of any thermal expansion tank in the house, there isn't one at either of the hot water tanks.

The symptom of needing one is the T&P valve letting out water on occasion -- and the occasion is you take a hot shower, and then stop using water.

 

[Taylorjm]

I’ve never see a propress tool for rent. They are too expensive and the time it would take to recover the money in rental fees would be too long. Plus you know how people beat on rental tools.

So why are you looking at putting the valve way back in a corner surrounded by electrical stuff? You have a nice straight piece of pipe right before the check valve that’s easy to get at. I would sweat a good quality full port ball valve there so then you can replace anything downstream you would need to. It won’t take that long to sweat a valve on. Yeah you may need to have a shop vac handy with a crevice tool and just suck all the water out of the pipe then hurry and sweat it.

 

[Jppenner]

I’ve never see a propress tool for rent. They are too expensive and the time it would take to recover the money in rental fees would be too long. Plus you know how people beat on rental tools.

So why are you looking at putting the valve way back in a corner surrounded by electrical stuff? You have a nice straight piece of pipe right before the check valve that’s easy to get at. I would sweat a good quality full port ball valve there so then you can replace anything downstream you would need to. It won’t take that long to sweat a valve on. Yeah you may need to have a shop vac handy with a crevice tool and just suck all the water out of the pipe then hurry and sweat it.

Yeah, it is too bad that propress tool is not available because that seemed like the perfect solution for me since I have very little sweating experience.

I definitely was not going to put the valve in that corner, I just thought that would be a good place to put the sharkbite so that it was blocked from coming off by jamming it into the joist. The plan was to elbow down to below the joist, then elbow parallel with the joists and put the valve near the wall. From there I would switch to PEX.

Maybe your idea would be better, put the elbow below the joist in the straight part. Have the elbow facing parallel to the joists so that the valve is heading towards the wall and then another elbow to come down the wall and switch to PEX there. I could pre-assemble the sections between elbows to give myself some practice sweating before they come to shut the water off and then I will just have to make the cut and sweat the elbow on. Just will be a lot of pressure to get that elbow sweated on while he waits.

 

[Taylorjm]

Yeah, it is too bad that propress tool is not available because that seemed like the perfect solution for me since I have very little sweating experience.

I definitely was not going to put the valve in that corner, I just thought that would be a good place to put the sharkbite so that it was blocked from coming off by jamming it into the joist. The plan was to elbow down to below the joist, then elbow parallel with the joists and put the valve near the wall. From there I would switch to PEX.

Maybe your idea would be better, put the elbow below the joist in the straight part. Have the elbow facing parallel to the joists so that the valve is heading towards the wall and then another elbow to come down the wall and switch to PEX there. I could pre-assemble the sections between elbows to give myself some practice sweating before they come to shut the water off and then I will just have to make the cut and sweat the elbow on. Just will be a lot of pressure to get that elbow sweated on while he waits.

View attachment 103869

If you are looking to do it quick while the water is off, then just put the valve in that spot. Then you can play around with the pex and any other repiping you want. Just remember, if you have a 3/4" copper line coming in and you are using crimp or or clamps on pex, you will want to use 1" pex line and fittings since the fittings reduce the flow. That's what I did with my setup. Used 1" pex then transistioned to the 3/4" copper.

 

[Reach4]

If using Sharkbite, the Sharkbite Max is claimed to have a stronger hold. https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/max

 

[Jppenner]

Thank you everybody. I am actually thinking I might just buy one of those IBOSAD hydraulic press tools. Roger Wakefield did a test on his channel comparing it to the Rigid press and it seems to do a pretty good job.

 

[John Gayewski]

Thank you everybody. I am actually thinking I might just buy one of those IBOSAD hydraulic press tools. Roger Wakefield did a test on his channel comparing it to the Rigid press and it seems to do a pretty good job.

I have a cheap Chinese one that I've used. As long as you have the space it's fine.

 

[Jppenner]

So one of the local rental shops got back to me that they have the Rigid press tool so I’m all set.

Sorry, one more question though. It looks really easy to find threaded check valves, ball valves and PRV’s so I am thinking it makes the most sense to just cut the copper line and press on an adapter to male threads and then just thread the valves in sequence and then adapt back to PEX. It should make the install easy and if I ever have to replace anything it is just unthreading and replacing. Is there any problem with this idea?

 

[John Gayewski]

So one of the local rental shops got back to me that they have the Rigid press tool so I’m all set.

Sorry, one more question though. It looks really easy to find threaded check valves, ball valves and PRV’s so I am thinking it makes the most sense to just cut the copper line and press on an adapter to male threads and then just thread the valves in sequence and then adapt back to PEX. It should make the install easy and if I ever have to replace anything it is just unthreading and replacing. Is there any problem with this idea?

It's a good idea.

 

[wwhitney]

It should make the install easy and if I ever have to replace anything it is just unthreading and replacing.

Just a comment on this--most PEX connections aren't designed to spin or be reversible after you make them up. So after you're done, you wouldn't be able to unscrew anything in between your press adapter and your PEX.

If you want to be able to do that (would be very handy if you find one of your threaded connections has a little leak and needs to be tightened or redone), you'll need to plan on a union (sometimes troublesome) or other reversible connection. E.g. a PTC (push-to-connect, e.g. Sharkbite) male adapter for the transition to PEX. Or possibly a compression connection somewhere in there; I'm not as familiar with those.

Cheers, Wayne