Salt use down

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LLigetfa

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Sounds like extending the brine draw cycle a lot after an IO treatment, which would extend the slow rinse, would be useful to clear the IO better. The slow rinse uses laminar flow, where backwashing, and even fast rinse, mixes things up.
Or do two back-to-back manual regens and only add Iron Out on the first regen.

The brine draw is 60 minutes and it takes less than 10 minutes to draw all of the brine. ISTR that the fast rinse/pack that follows brine draw is around 6 minutes

BTW, before I ran Iron out through the system yesterday, the opaque pex drain line was fouled black presumably from manganese. After two back-to-back regens both of which I added Iron Out to, the drain line is now much cleaner. I assume that if the drain line was fouled, then so too was the resin.

When I hired my water guy to add a half cube of FilterAG to the iron filter, I also asked him to check out the softener to see if it was performing well. I now think he did not do anything at all to the softener. I think he dismissed my complaint of poor softening by attributing iron bleed-through as affecting the total softening capacity. I think he should have at least cleaned and verified the programming and fill float setting was correct. He came highly recommended but I now have doubts about his competence. I now have to decide whether to call him out on this or bite by tongue.

I do enjoy DIY for the most part but some things I would like to just leave to the experts. Looks like this is not one of those.
 

Bannerman

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It was quoted and billed as a 50K softener.
The advertised capacity is not as much of a concern as there are some differences between resin brands. Resin capacity is most commonly based on 32K grs/ft3, but some resin brands may offer slightly higher capacity per ft3. Softener programming is usually based on 32K/ft3 which will also work for resin with slightly higher capacity. I anticipate stating 50K to be marketing hype to portray their softeners to be more capable compared to others.

The larger concern is the claim of 1.7 ft3 media within a 10" X 54" tank.

A 10" X 54" tank has a total volume capacity 2.2 ft3. A supplier could technically install 2.2 ft3 media within that size tank.

The usual backwash expansion needed for softening resin is 40-50%. 1.5 ft3 media will fill 2.25 ft3 when expanded 50% so 50% (2.7 GPM DLFC) will not work. 1.5 ft3 expanded by 40% (2.2 GPM DLFC) will fill 2.1 ft3 space so 40% expansion is achievable.

1.7 ft3 with 40% expansion will require 2.38 ft3 space within a tank capable of only 2.2 ft3. To use 1.7 ft3 media would then be limited to only 25% expansion, far below the usual recommendation.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/138

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155
 
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Reach4

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I was thinking after a heavy IO treatment, which is when I was presuming the lingering odor occured. IO does have much stronger aroma than most stuff you might treat with.

The brine draw is 60 minutes and it takes less than 10 minutes to draw all of the brine. ISTR that the fast rinse/pack that follows brine draw is around 6 minutes
I would go to a lower-flow injector if it were me. More efficient, but I don't have an efficiency number for you. 15 minutes is a typical target, but 20 minutes is a little more effective.

But anyway good to hear that your brine is being drawn out correctly, and that raising your float will probably be the big thing you needed.
 

Bannerman

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it takes less than 10 minutes to draw all of the brine.
Because the inappropriate safety float position had been preventing the correct amount of water from entering the brine tank, the time needed to draw that brine will be reduced.

I assume when you measured 10 minutes needed to draw the brine from the brine tank, was after the float had been adjusted and at least 1 regeneration was already performed to allow water to enter for the full 8 minute BF setting.
 

LLigetfa

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I assume when you measured 10 minutes needed to draw the brine from the brine tank, was after the float had been adjusted and at least 1 regeneration was already performed to allow water to enter for the full 8 minute BF setting.
No, I have not yet raised the float to just below the overflow and have not yet observed 8 minutes of brine fill. I have been going in small steps, first raising the float an inch and then later two inches but that second adjustment was after I ran a regen. I figured since I was doing two back-to-back regens, that I did not need the maximum salt dosing. I poured around a gallon of water to raise the level two inches up to the float after the last regen. It is just a guess but I think the refill might go for around six minutes with the current float setting.

I am just going by the manufacturer spec that the fill rate is .5 GPM and have not actually measured it. I wonder if 8 minutes might actually fill it to the overflow.
 

Bannerman

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The quantity of water to enter the brine tank, is to be only controlled by the BF setting as related to the BLFC fill rate.

The safety float is to remain above the liquid level and as stated earlier, is only a safety device to prevent the brine tank from overflowing if there should ever be a malfunction or power loss during brine fill.

Timing The current 10 minute brine draw time is irrelevant as that 10 minutes only relates to a portion of brine needed.

What is the capacity currently programmed? The capacity setting will determine the salt amount required which will then determine the BF setting to be programmed.
 
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Bannerman

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after raising the float is a good idea.
Yes, after the float has been raised and a further regen performed so the following draw time will be based on the full 4 gallons (8 min X 0.5 GPM BLFC) to enter the brine tank.
 
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LLigetfa

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What is the capacity currently programmed?
I don't know, the dealer programmed it. I've never put the softener into programming mode to see what the dealer entered. What I do know is after a regen it says I have around 455 gallons of softening capacity.
 

ditttohead

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On first regen, the bubbles were at the start of the brine draw. Bubbles also after brine well emptied.


The fill float check uses a rod that goes down to the pickup which is completely submerged in brine at start of cycle. Only place for an air leak is the elbow at the top of the brine well where the brine tubes connect and exits the tank.

The combination fill check and air check looks like the following. The elbow goes on the top of the vertical tube.
Water_Softener_Brine_Valve_GE.jpg
If you have this float, please replace it with a good one. These are notorious for failing, they are also about 1/3 the cost of a good safety float.
 

LLigetfa

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The Iron Out tends not to all get rinsed to the drain and so finds its way into the HWT where it liberates iron that then irks the wife when it shows up in her bath water. This only affects the hot water. The cold water looks fine. It could also be that the now softer water is what is liberating the iron in the HWT but I do smell the Iron Out in the shower. Regardless, after I do maintenance on the softener, I end up in the doghouse.
Today the hot water quality was terrible and the wife is not happy. I drained and flushed the HWT. The iron filter indicated it was going to backwash tonight so I ran it and then flushed the HWT again.

I've got the day off tomorrow so the wife gets to chew on my ear all day if it doesn't clear up.
 

LLigetfa

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OK, so several weeks have passed and I've made a few small adjustments in the float height but have not yet set it so high that it doesn't stop the fill before its time.

I have been monitoring the softness entirely by feel with no actual hardness testing and have observed that the softness is inconsistent which suggests that it still runs out of capacity before a regen. Last week the wife had set the dog's water pail in the sink to soak with some added bleach and I noticed the bleach turned the water orange which suggests there is still iron getting past both the iron filter and the softener. What I found odd was she did not complain about her bath water at the time. Would not exposing the water to air not turn it orange the way bleach did?

A while back, I had my water guy add half a CF of FilterAG in hopes of improving higher service flow rate filtering. We also increased the backwash time as well as tried a larger DLFC but at the time, the pump with the micronizer bypass setting could not keep up with the larger DLFC causing the pressure to drop to around 10 PSI during the backwash so I put back the smaller DLFC shortly after. I have since switched back to the larger DLFC and now the draw does not cause so drastic a pressure drop. That suggests there are either flow restrictions somewhere inline that does not allow the DLFC full flow, or the pump GPM is higher. This requires further investigation and a good cleaning of all components in the path, which I will do later this Spring.

I also listen to the wife's comments, and after the last regen, she complained that the water is too soft. She has not complained about the clarity of her bath water. I really should get a test kit to monitor the water quality more accurately.
 

LLigetfa

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I have since raised the float higher but with a full tank of salt, and by the nature of clear water being less dense than the brine, it still tripped the overfill check. I emailed my water guy to complain. One suggestion he made was to not fill the tank with salt as high as the brine level. That is not practical as I really don't want to babysit this thing with watching for when it consumes one bag and then adding one bag at a time. A comment he made was that the manufacturer should ship these with larger brine tanks.

I countered back his suggestion by suggesting we install a salt grid which would elevate the salt so it does not displace as much brine. Supposedly he does not have a salt grid to fit this tank, so he suggested maybe cutting one down to fit but that would depend on how close the legs are to the edge keeping in mind that only 3 sides can be trimmed since the brine well hole is on the 4th side. He then offered to sell me a salt grid for a larger tank and to trade out my old tank.

As for the iron filter, it again stopped working right and bled a crapton of iron into the softener. The softener then could not handle the volume of iron resulting in terrible hard water plus iron. The wife was not happy and started to complain that the system "always has problems". I told her it is not unlike her in that it is high maintenance. I'm in the doghouse already so in for a penny, in for a pound.

I connected my air compressor to a blowdown port just before the iron filter and ran a couple of manual backwashes, periodically introducing little bursts of air to shake up the media while I monitored the drain line to see when it started to run clearer. After that, I ran a regen cycle on the softener. I monitored the drain for the first backwash cycle and it had lots of iron so I ran a 2nd regen. I then scheduled for a 3rd regen to run overnight. Happy wife...

As a weekend project, I need to dismantle the tanks and pipes one at a time with bypasses so that I can take them apart and pressure wash them in hopes of getting this iron filter to backwash properly.
 

LLigetfa

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He then offered to sell me a salt grid for a larger tank and to trade out my old tank.
I picked up the new larger round tank with salt grid and installed it. It came with the same brand/style of air check/safety float as the old one but of course with a longer tube to accommodate the taller tank. Interestingly the taller tank has the overflow set closer to the top than the old smaller tank.

I put 9 bags of salt in the new tank which almost filled it. I could have added one more but I wanted to keep the last bag on hand for when it is time to reorder JIC there is a delay in shipment. The old tank could hold around 5 bags, so about half as much.

I contemplated calculating how much water to prefill it with but then decided instead to just put it into regen and skip ahead to the fill stage. I then realized the flaw in my thinking. The brine draw will never remove all of the fill amount since the intake is up off of the bottom, so the initial fill needs to be more than what the brine fill time is programmed for. Also, skipping ahead to the fill stage, resets the gallons available the same as if I had not skipped the other stages. I ran another (complete) regen.

With the larger tank and with the salt grid, the brine level with salt displacement is well below half.
 

ditttohead

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The air blocker works fairly well so far, I am working on a new design and hoping to have it released in a few months that will further reduce the issues. Unfortunately they only make it for the 1.05" riser.
upload_2021-5-19_17-29-37.png
 

LLigetfa

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The air blocker works fairly well so far, I am working on a new design and hoping to have it released in a few months that will further reduce the issues.
Does the air blocker preclude the use of a top basket? My water guy claims that it cannot coexist with a top basket. He suggested I add a one minute backwash stage to purge any air after the brine draw and before the forward rinse and pack.
 
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