Salt Residue / Black Film Injector Filter

[Dvid]

For the past two years our 4 year old Fleck 5600SXT softener has been letting through what seems to be salty deposits. Our shower head has white caking that one softener "expert" said tasted like salt. WE had extensie water reports run and the water was and always has been soft after treatment and there are no other elements out of spec like minerals.

Several of our brushed nickel fixtures have been stained / tarnished. When water drips on the floor and dries there is a slight crusty ring around it.

Contacted the manufacturer / distributor of the Fleck system. They sent me a new injector part with new filters. When I removed the old one, some pieces had a black slime on them which they say is not normal.

1. Do you think this could be causing the extra salt from the fixtures?
2. Do you think the crust on my fixtures is salt?
3. Is this a failure of the softener?
4. Would some sort of pre-filter fix this problem?

Attaching two photos. One of the screen totally black and the other of a white plastic filter piece I wiped half the black stuff off.

Thanks! Everyone we have talked to has been stumped.

 

[Water Pro]

are you on a well? if so, testing for manganese, iron, pH and Total dissolved solids (TDS) would be advised. TDS is mostly salts and may be a contributing factor to the salty water.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dvid]

are you on a well? if so, testing for manganese, iron, pH and Total dissolved solids (TDS) would be advised. TDS is mostly salts and may be a contributing factor to the salty water.

Yes, well. We had extensive water tests done. Water always tests soft.

All these rated "The contaminant was not detected in the sample above the minimum detection level."

• Manganese ND mg/L 0.05 EPA Secondary 0.004
• Iron ND mg/L 0.3 EPA Secondary 0.020
• pH 7.7 pH Units 6.5 to 8.5 EPA Secondary

TDS Inside Softened: 384 mg/L
TDS Unsoftened outside: 375 mg/L

 

[Reach4]

• Manganese ND mg/L 0.05 EPA Secondary 0.004
• Iron ND mg/L 0.3 EPA Secondary 0.020
• pH 7.7 pH Units 6.5 to 8.5 EPA Secondary

So your values for each line are the last, last, and first numbers, right?

TDS Inside Softened: 384 mg/L
TDS Unsoftened outside: 375 mg/L

That does not show an unreasonable increase in salt.

Salt residue will wash off.
Silica will not.

What color is your injector (2 pieces) White? 10x54 inch tank?

 

[Bannerman]

Are you able to access the programming menu to report the settings?

Do you know the softener's total softening capacity (ie: 32,000, 48,000 or 64,000 grains)? If not, measure the dimensions of the media tank.

On the control valve near the brine connection should be a label that specifies BLFC (brine line flow control) and another label that specifies an Injector number and/or color.

You said the water always tests soft. What type of hardness test are you using? What is the hardness of the water before treatment? Other than the softener, is the water being treated in any other manner?

 

[Dvid]

So your values for each line are the last, last, and first numbers, right?

That does not show an unreasonable increase in salt.

Salt residue will wash off.
Silica will not.

What color is your injector (2 pieces) White? 10x54 inch tank?

The first number is my results, the last number the minimum detection level.

Believe my injector pieces are white if you look at this picture just below the brass brine tube connector to the left. I wiped the black gunk off half the plastic insert at the top. If you unscrew that there is another white plastic piece beneath it.

Thanks.

 

[Dvid]

Are you able to access the programming menu to report the settings?

Do you know the softener's total softening capacity (ie: 32,000, 48,000 or 64,000 grains)? If not, measure the dimensions of the media tank.

On the control valve near the brine connection should be a label that specifies BLFC (brine line flow control) and another label that specifies an Injector number and/or color.

You said the water always tests soft. What type of hardness test are you using? What is the hardness of the water before treatment? Other than the softener, is the water being treated in any other manner?

Yes, it is "USA Fleck 5600 SXT Metered On-demand 48,000 Grain Water Softener 1" Bypass USA Tanks"

The brine tank measures 3ft tall and 14" wide at the top and tapers as it goes down. One guy said it's a bit small but OK.

The two labels...
On the injector valve in the front...
.50GPM
1.5 LB
SALT/MIN

In the back...
INJECTOR (Handwritten 1)
DRAIN FLOW (Handwritten 2.0) GPM

We've used various strip tests, but the professional, expensive, comprehensive tests were from National Labs.

Total hardness outside unsoftened: 17 g/g as CaCO3 pH: 7.63 TDS: 375 mg/L
Totla hardness inside softened: 0 g/g as CaCO3 pH: 7.64 TDS: 384 mg/L

No, no other treatment to the water. One water softener guy said some people put on a pre-filter. The outside spigots are totally loaded with what looks like minerals or calcium. I had to saw off the hoses this year after tons of WD40, trying to pour hot water on them, various wrenches. Not fun. None of those deposits seem to show up on the inside extensive water tests. If you want any other levels from those tests I'm happy to provide but they were all within spec.

Thanks.

 

[Dvid]

You also asked for programming settings on the Fleck 5600SXT. Originally I did the manufacturer / distributor's recommendations 4 years ago. Then a local water softener company came and changed it to use more salt. Then troubleshooting with the manufacturer / distributor recently they had me set to this...

DF Gal
VTd F1b
CT Fd
NT-1
C-36 (Water softener company settings had this at 24)
H-20
RS-rc
RC-150 (Water softener company settings had this as 300)
DO-21 (Water softener company settings had this as 14)
RT-2AM
BW-10
BD-60
RR-10
BF-1 (Water softener company settings had this as 6)
FM-P0.7

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

The first number is my results, the last number the minimum detection level.

Your Iron and Mn numbers just happen to coincide with the "EPA Secondary maximum contaminant levels "?

https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has not set maximum contaminant levels (MCL) for iron and manganese in the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations. Secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCL) recommended in the National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations are set for esthetic reasons and are not enforceable by EPA, but are intended as guides to the States. The SMCL for iron is 0.3 milligrams per liter (mg/L) and the SMCL for manganese is 0.05 mg/L.
​

 

[Dvid]

Your Iron and Mn numbers just happen to coincide with the "EPA Secondary maximum contaminant levels "?

https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has not set maximum contaminant levels (MCL) for iron and manganese in the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations. Secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCL) recommended in the National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations are set for esthetic reasons and are not enforceable by EPA, but are intended as guides to the States. The SMCL for iron is 0.3 milligrams per liter (mg/L) and the SMCL for manganese is 0.05 mg/L.
​

Hey I owe you a huge apology. I re-read those results and my number is actually the ND which I believe means non-detectable. I told you wrong about the order of the numbers. You caught it noticing those were the exact secondary standards.

Column Headings:
Contaminant - Results - Units - National Standards - Min. Detection Level

• Manganese ND mg/L 0.05 EPA Secondary 0.004
• Iron ND mg/L 0.3 EPA Secondary 0.020

Here is what the National Testing Labs remarked on the inside cold water....
"Sulfates: 27mg/L. Chlorides: 85mg/L. No change in chloride levels. Results indicate that hardness, iron, and manganese are being reduced to zero, or near zero levels."

Knowing Manganese and Iron aren't the issue any other ideas about the black slime and the salty deposits from the tap and staining of fixtures ? Again, sorry for my oversight.

 

[Reach4]

Knowing these aren't the issue any other ideas? Again, sorry for my oversight.

You got ND for iron and Mn on your unsoftened raw water? Nice! I should have noticed the NDs. However ND for iron in Indiana does seem unusually good, so make sure you looked at the unsoftened water.

I might consider adding a low-pressure-drop cartridge filter before the softener. You might just have a little sediment. Still, cleaning your injector (both pieces) and injector screen with an old toothbrush every couple of years is not hard.

Confirm that your softener tank is 10x54.

 

[Bannerman]

The drain flow rate for a 10" diameter media tank is normally 2.4 GPM. What is the temp of your incoming water?

To regenerate 36,000 grains Capacity will require 12 lbs salt each cycle. As 1 gallon water will dissolve 3 lbs salt, to dissolve 12 lbs will require 4 gallons. To refill the brine tank with 4 gallons - 0.5 GPM BLFC X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons.

I expect the 60 minute Brine Draw setting will transfer the 12 lbs brine from the brine tank to the media tank within ~15 minutes, leaving ~45 minutes for the brine to be pushed through the resin and for the resin to be rinsed clear of residual sodium. You may want to confirm the correct quantity of brine is transferred in about 15 minutes from the start of BD.

Verify the meter type is actually a turbine version. A 5600 will be often equipped with a paddle wheel meter so if the incorrect version is selected in programming, regeneration can occur either too late or too soon with regard to the programmed capacity.

 

[Reach4]

Yes, it is "USA Fleck 5600 SXT Metered On-demand 48,000 Grain Water Softener 1" Bypass USA Tanks"

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-5600sxt-48k.82256/#post-593612 may be good settings for you, except for H.

 

[Dvid]

You got ND for iron and Mn on your unsoftened raw water? Nice! I should have noticed the NDs. However ND for iron in Indiana does seem unusually good, so make sure you looked at the unsoftened water.

I might consider adding a low-pressure-drop cartridge filter before the softener. You might just have a little sediment. Still, cleaning your injector (both pieces) and injector screen with an old toothbrush every couple of years is not hard.

Confirm that your softener tank is 10x54.

No, those levels were for softened. Don't know if we have tested unsoftened. All I have for unsoftened is...

Total Hardness: 17 g/g as CaCO3
pH: 7.63
TDS: 375 mg/L
Total Alkalinity: 200 mg/L
Iron: 0.01 mg/L
Saturation Index: +0.37
Nitrates: 5.2 mg/L
Total Comp Hardness: 17 g/g as CaCo
Manganese: 0.141 mg/L
Tannins: mg

The tank is 54" tall before the control unit. It's 34" circumference. Not sure what the 10" is, if that is circumference.

 

[Reach4]

are you on a well? if so, testing for manganese, iron, pH and Total dissolved solids (TDS) would be advised.

Manganese: 0.141 mg/L

That Manganese is the biggie.

 

[Dvid]

The drain flow rate for a 10" diameter media tank is normally 2.4 GPM. What is the temp of your incoming water?

To regenerate 36,000 grains Capacity will require 12 lbs salt each cycle. As 1 gallon water will dissolve 3 lbs salt, to dissolve 12 lbs will require 4 gallons. To refill the brine tank with 4 gallons - 0.5 GPM BLFC X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons.

I expect the 60 minute Brine Draw setting will transfer the 12 lbs brine from the brine tank to the media tank within ~15 minutes, leaving ~45 minutes for the brine to be pushed through the resin and for the resin to be rinsed clear of residual sodium. You may want to confirm the correct quantity of brine is transferred in about 15 minutes from the start of BD.

Verify the meter type is actually a turbine version. A 5600 will be often equipped with a paddle wheel meter so if the incorrect version is selected in programming, regeneration can occur either too late or too soon with regard to the programmed capacity.

No idea of the temp of the incoming water. Sorry.

I'm 48K grain capacity I believe, so I'm not sure in layman / homeowner's terms what your impressive computations are showing me. LOL.

The manufacturer / distributor did run a test with me to make sure the level in the brine tube was drawn down correctly with a regeneration of some sort and it was. It think it was like 15 minutes he had me go back and compare the level.

Tried to look up the difference between turbine and paddlewheel to report back. Think this is a turbine, that bulb between the controller and the shut off valves. The manufacturer / distributor asked me that when he redid the settings. Attaching the photo. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

Tried to look up the difference between turbine and paddlewheel to report back. Think this is a turbine, that bulb between the controller and the shut off valves.

Yes, that is the paddlewheel.

Instead of "Total Comp Hardness: 17 g/g as CaCo" did it say "Total Comp Hardness: 17 mg/l as CaCo"?

If so, your hardness is minimal, and the main job of your softener is to remove manganese (Mn)

 

[Dvid]

That Manganese is the biggie.

OK, again, not a plumber or water expert. Could you unpack that a little bit and talk about what the issue that causes and the possible remedies? Thanks so much!

 

[Reach4]

I have not dealt with Mn, but it is black. Not all black stuff is Mn, but your test says your Mn is 2.8x the 0.050 nuisance level.

 

[Water Pro]

OK, again, not a plumber or water expert. Could you unpack that a little bit and talk about what the issue that causes and the possible remedies? Thanks so much!

reach4 is correct in that black usually indicates the presence of manganese. up your hardness setting to nearer 30 and you may see some relief. a 20 mic sediment filter installed prior to the softener would be advised.