Rough in help

[Zimmyntrn]

Hi,
I am in a pickle and need some advice.

We are renovating a bathroom and the plumber forgot to mention after replumbing everything that the rough for the Toilet is at 17 inches!
Apparently there was an extra wall behind the toilet that no one realized.

I am attaching a photo of the setup now.
A plumber Friend recommended a different fitting but this plumber says it’s against code and dangerous for backups.

Any advice or help would be great since they already tiled and the contractor wants to a small 3 foot wall 4in deep behind the toilet.

I attached a photo of the setup before they closed it. Also the piece my plumber friend recommended.

The current plumber suggested a 14 in rough toilet plus installing it ~2 in offset if possible.

Thank you in advance!

 

[wwhitney]

17" rough in is sufficiently far from standard that this is clearly a mistake, and it's on your contractor and plumber to fix.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the plumber could remove the short stub of cast iron under the banded coupling by drilling out the lead. And that then a street wye fitting could be instead into the cast iron hub with the proper donut. That should gain you at least 3 inches.

Your plumber friend's idea would be a code violation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

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[Chuck The Plumber]

Your installing plumber used the fittings that are recommended by code for proper drainage. The elbow with the side outlet (in the picture shown) would have solved the problem of getting the toilet closer to the back wall. So the decision for you is....do you want proper drainage and add the 4" wall or tear up some tile and use the side outlet elbow. You can't fault your installing plumber for trying to do right and following the code. In some areas, you can lose your license by not following proper codes. Whenever we have a situation like this, we discuss it first with the contractor and homeowner so everyone knows the ramifications.

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[wwhitney]

You can't fault your installing plumber for trying to do right and following the code. In some areas, you can lose your license by not following proper codes. Whenever we have a situation like this, we discuss it first with the contractor and homeowner so everyone knows the ramifications.

It's certainly reasonable for the homeowner to fault the contractor/plumber for not brining up the issue, as you say you try to do. Particularly as in this case I believe there's a code compliant solution to get to a 14" rough-in (not sure about 12").

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Zimmyntrn]

17" rough in is sufficiently far from standard that this is clearly a mistake, and it's on your contractor and plumber to fix.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the plumber could remove the short stub of cast iron under the banded coupling by drilling out the lead. And that then a street wye fitting could be instead into the cast iron hub with the proper donut. That should gain you at least 3 inches.

Your plumber friend's idea would be a code violation.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for the message and discussion.
How risky is using the against code fitting?

I am not sure we could cut the cast iron section off since on the other side is another bathroom /toilet that is tied into the fitting on the other side.

Are you saying you think he could cut back that piece and PVC directly into it?

Thanks again!

 

[wwhitney]

Thank you for the message and discussion.
How risky is using the against code fitting?

Risky enough to rule it out.

I am not sure we could cut the cast iron section off since on the other side is another bathroom /toilet that is tied into the fitting on the other side.

I did not propose cutting the cast iron fitting. What the picture shows is the cast iron hub of a fitting, and directly next to that, a banded rubber coupling. Those rubber couplings attach to sections of pipe, not fittings. So inside half of that rubber coupling and extending into the cast iron hub is a piece of the original cast iron pipe. That pipe is connected to the cast iron hub most likely with lead and oakum.

So I proposed drilling out the lead and remove the old cast iron pipe, leaving a clean unaltered cast iron hub. Then there is a modern product commonly called a rubber donut that will form a tight seal between a PVC pipe inserted into the hub and the side wall of the hub.

By use a "street" PVC fitting, where one end is the same diameter as a section of pipe, going into the rubber donut inside the hub, you will eliminate all of the horizontal space taken up by the banded rubber coupling, and then some (most/all of the horizontal space taken up by the PVC hub on the wye).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Zimmyntrn]

Risky enough to rule it out.


I did not propose cutting the cast iron fitting. What the picture shows is the cast iron hub of a fitting, and directly next to that, a banded rubber coupling. Those rubber couplings attach to sections of pipe, not fittings. So inside half of that rubber coupling and extending into the cast iron hub is a piece of the original cast iron pipe. That pipe is connected to the cast iron hub most likely with lead and oakum.

So I proposed drilling out the lead and remove the old cast iron pipe, leaving a clean unaltered cast iron hub. Then there is a modern product commonly called a rubber donut that will form a tight seal between a PVC pipe inserted into the hub and the side wall of the hub.

By use a "street" PVC fitting, where one end is the same diameter as a section of pipe, going into the rubber donut inside the hub, you will eliminate all of the horizontal space taken up by the banded rubber coupling, and then some (most/all of the horizontal space taken up by the PVC hub on the wye).

Cheers, Wayne

You are my hero Wayne if I can get my contractor to do this.
I really didn’t want to build a 5in wall behind the toilet.

How easy will it be to get the piece out if it is stuck in with lead etc…

 

[JayKuul]

You are my hero Wayne if I can get my contractor to do this.
I really didn’t want to build a 5in wall behind the toilet.

How easy will it be to get the piece out if it is stuck in with lead etc…

Its... challenging for sure... Drill holes all around through the lead to get a handle on it and pry out as much as you can.

 

[wwhitney]

Its... challenging for sure... Drill holes all around through the lead to get a handle on it and pry out as much as you can.

Right, so the current situation is likely a case of either (a) the plumber/contractor was not very imaginative and didn't figure out how to do a standard rough-in via the above strategy or (b) the plumber/contractor knew they could do the above but didn't want to take the time, so they tried to cut corners.

I say likely because there's also the possibility of (c) I'm mistaken and there's something that precludes the above solution. Having never worked with leaded cast iron joints, the chance of (c) is clearly non-zero, but I doubt it's super high.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Zimmyntrn]

Right, so the current situation is likely a case of either (a) the plumber/contractor was not very imaginative and didn't figure out how to do a standard rough-in via the above strategy or (b) the plumber/contractor knew they could do the above but didn't want to take the time, so they tried to cut corners.

I say likely because there's also the possibility of (c) I'm mistaken and there's something that precludes the above solution. Having never worked with leaded cast iron joints, the chance of (c) is clearly non-zero, but I doubt it's super high.

Cheers, Wayne

It’s actually - the plumber didn’t realize there was a wall there before - so he just put it back where it was before without telling anyone.
So lazy mostly.

Now plumber and contractor want to use a 14in rough in toilet and an offset flange.

Thoughts? Should I make them redo?

Also, are you allowed a offset flange with a toto unifit adapter?

 

[Reach4]

You can use an offset flange with a Unifit adapter.

 

[wwhitney]

Thoughts? Should I make them redo?

If the floor is still plywood, or the ceiling below is drywall, I definitely would.

If neither of those is true, it would bear further consideration.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I'm in 100% agreance with Wayne on this one. Move the rough in location.

 

[Zimmyntrn]

If the floor is still plywood, or the ceiling below is drywall, I definitely would.

If neither of those is true, it would bear further consideration.

Cheers, Wayne

Drywall under but tiled the floor before I pointed out the issue.
I think we’d only need to take out 2-4 tiles

I know better than to trust them - don’t know why I didn’t measure sooner.

Maybe a Toto unifit at 14 with an offset flange is the answer sadly.

 

[Reach4]

I used a 12 inch Unifit for about a 13 inch rough. You may be able to stretch a 14 inch unifit some.

The good plastic+stainless steel offset flanges offset 1.5 inches.

What I did:
Initially, using the bolt method, I thought I had a 13-7/16 rough.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...baseboard-and-shoe-molding.58080/#post-428138

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...nifit-or-stick-with-the-12.59681/#post-442544

showed what I did... my rough was closer to 13 inches.

It turned out that my rough was less than I initially thought based on external bolt measurements. The bolts were not in long slots which would have provided some easy adjustability; they were in side slots. The bolts were not the exact same distance to the wall.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/toilet-rough-in-dilemma.89675/#post-643625

has marked-up unifit photo showing the concept. The drywall screws (green arrows) would not have been necessary. I do overkill at times.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The unifit is a 2" outlet that you will be targeting over a 3 or 4" closet flange hole. There are ways to get creative with unifits. I've made some heavy modifications on them to do similar but lateral moves.

 

[Zimmyntrn]

Thank you for all your help everyone. They ended up opening two tiles and taking out the rubber piece connect to the stack - gained 3.5-4 inches. Will love with 1 in behind toilet (as I had already bought a 12in rough from American standard)