Rocking Toilet

[Plumber'sSon]

It is rather a generic question, sorry if it was discussed earlier.
I am installing a Toto Drake II and discovered that it wobbles a lot.
First of all it was surprising as the previous Toto Drake I installed few months ago but had to replace because of a leak in the bowl did not rock that much. It seemed to have very good contact with the floor and I used only one shim to level it.
The new toilet after I leveled it has big gaps. In details: there is a contact with the floor on one side next to the bolt. I used a pretty thick shim on the back for leveling and a slim one on the front to prevent rocking. I was able to put one shim on the other side next to the bolt to both level an stabilize the toilet. Now that size has a big gap between the toilet and the floor.
I wonder if I did something wrong here.
If it is supposed to be this way I wonder if I should put more shims in the gap to increase the contact area and spread the pressure more evenly. What kind of shims is preferable? Is EZ-Johny good?

 

[Reach4]

You might look at https://terrylove.com/forums/index....slight-rocking-how-to-shim.46150/#post-336260

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Plumber'sSon]

Does not answer my questions.
My gap(s) are pretty big: both long and high.
I mostly wonder if I need to use multiple shims instead of just 3, which stop the rocking.
See please the original posting.

 

[Reach4]

It seemed relevant to "What kind of shims is preferable?". That was one of 2 explicit questions in your original posts if I use your question marks as a guide. I have no info on "EZ-Johny" and I did not search for it.

While I had an opinion on some of the other implied questions, I did not comment on those. It would have been more involved such as asking how many points on the toilet bottom touched the floor at the same time, how level and flat the floor is, and then getting into the implications.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I prefer to try to shim the back up and leave the front edge on the floor as much as possible.

 

[Terry]

I prefer to try to shim the back up and leave the front edge on the floor as much as possible.

Same.
We set without wax to begin with. This way we can tell if there is a problem with the flange.
If the flange is high, and you have used a wax with horn, that could be the problem. Sometimes the plastic horn prevents the bowl from dropping down to the floor.

A like to pick up plastic door shims. They also make shims for installing toilets, but they tend to have a steeper slope.

I shim the back of the bowl if needed.

 

[Plumber'sSon]

Same.
We set without wax to begin with. This way we can tell if there is a problem with the flange.
If the flange is high, and you have used a wax with horn, that could be the problem. Sometimes the plastic horn prevents the bowl from dropping down to the floor.

A like to pick up plastic door shims. They also make shims for installing toilets, but they tend to have a steeper slope.

I am using the "Perfect Seal Toilet Wax Ring" as my flange is tilted and part of it is under the tile while another part is above. I did not see much of rocking with Toto Drake. I wonder if Toto Drake II has a more uneven base surface.
One side of the toilet seats on the floor for the most part, the gap in the back is about 1 / '4 '', little less on the other side and the front is under 1 / 8 ''. Again, I managed to level the toilet with two plastic shims on back and side and tiny tile shim on the front. Do I need to fill the rest of the gaps with couple more shims? I am afraid of pressure concentration around the shims.

Thanks

 

[Plumber'sSon]

It seemed relevant to "What kind of shims is preferable?". That was one of 2 explicit questions in your original posts if I use your question marks as a guide. I have no info on "EZ-Johny" and I did not search for it.

While I had an opinion on some of the other implied questions, I did not comment on those. It would have been more involved such as asking how many points on the toilet bottom touched the floor at the same time, how level and flat the floor is, and then getting into the implications.

I may have not made myself clear. I am trying to give all the relevant (from my point of view) details and not to be too verbose. Please see my reply to Terry's posting. I would be glad to provide more details.

Thanks

 

[Terry]

You tried setting the bowl over the flange without your "Perfect Seal"

You have a crooked flange, and you are using something that requires perfect alignment.
Wax would seem to be a better solution there.

 

[Plumber'sSon]

You tried setting the bowl over the flange without your "Perfect Seal"

You have a crooked flange, and you are using something that requires perfect alignment.
Wax would seem to be a better solution there.

When I removed the old toilet I saw a lot of damage from the leaks. Rusty bolts, dark spots on the plywood etc. It was before I joined this forum I installed the first Drake. I googled the solution and Perfect Seal seemed to be a good compromise: wax ring + some reinforcement and ajustability. As I am not a professional another attractive thing was that they say I could slightly move and re-position the toilet after it was set. It seemed to work good with the previous Drake. At least I did not spot any leaks for about couple dozens of flashes i tried.

 

[Mark Ezrin]

Terry wrote: We set without wax to begin with. This way we can tell if there is a problem with the flange.
If the flange is high, and you have used a wax with horn, that could be the problem. Sometimes the plastic horn prevents the bowl from dropping down to the floor.

I've seen comments to this effect on several posts within the forum.

This may sound ignorant and stupid but what exactly are the problems to look for when setting without wax?

I've looked over many videos about installing a toilet. I've not seen videos that give a test run and don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for with respect to the flange/toilet fit.

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

This may sound ignorant and stupid but what exactly are the problems to look for when setting without wax?

I've looked over many videos about installing a toilet. I've not seen videos that give a test run and don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for with respect to the flange/toilet fit.

I am not a plumber. Here is how I see it.
If you set the toilet down with no wax, the toilet should not rock. Rocking could be because the flange is high, or because the toilet base has only two places of contact with the floor. If no rocking, you should be OK to lift the toilet, place the wax, and place the toilet.

If it does rock, position shims so the toilet does not rock. Mark or trim the shims. Then lift the toilet. Mark shim position. Trim the shims to the marks. Position the shims if they moved. Place the wax. Drop the toilet.

The problem with placing the wax and then checking for rocking is that the rocking will compress wax, and then de-compress. Wax does not de-compress well, and that can leave cracks.

 

[Mark Ezrin]

What else are we looking for with respect to the flange? I've seen comments on various threads on this site about gaps or space, and height, etc. I'm not sure how I assess this. On one of the threads, someone had commented about getting a wax ring or possibly needing a jumbo wax ring. How do we determine which one we need?

Any suggestions?

For my repair, I had installed the non wax next perfect seal. had some rocking. Is it logical for me to just shim it and call it a day? My understanding is I don't need to take the toilet up for shimming the non wax ring. Is that a bad understanding on my part?

Or should I switch to the traditional wax?

Thanks for the patience.

 

[Jadnashua]

Toilet flanges are designed to be installed on top of the finished floor, and anchored tightly to them with no gaps underneath the rim of the flange. If yours is not in this designed position, often, you can make it work, but not always.

The reason to test fit the toilet on the flange is first to determine how it fits and shim if needed to make it stable. Shims probably won't resolve an issue if the flange is sitting too high. That's almost always because it is cocked, or there's a gap under its rim to the floor and thus, sits too high, at least at one point.

An all plastic toilet flange tends to eventually bend and crack, and should be avoided. One with a painted steel rim tends to rust, and should be avoided.

Some of the waxless seals have been around a long time, some are fairly new, and their track history isn't known. They should work long-term, but who knows for sure?

Wax, done right, will last until you decide to remove the toilet down the line. Practically, you cannot reuse a wax ring, so if you need to pull the toilet for some reason, you need a new ring. They're cheap, though.

A waxless seal might be useful if you like to paint or change the wallpaper often...you don't need to have a new wax ring around when you replace the toilet. If that's not a factor, IMHO, you're better off saving the cost and just using wax.

Because lots of people tend to install the flange on the subflooring during the plumbing installation and checkout, depending on the flooring you are installing, that can put the top of the flange at or below the surface of the floor. A standard wax ring may not be thick enough to make the seal. In that case, you might get by with a jumbo, which is thicker. Otherwise, Terry likes to use one with a horn and a plain one, and stack them. The horn helps to keep the two aligned (put it on top) so the wax doesn't shift and potentially plug things up.

 

[Mark Ezrin]

Thanks for the reply. Traditional installation - flange above the tile. Please see the picture with the next perfect seal hybrid wax ring.

The floor is level, with just one spot near the front left of the bowl (looking down) that is slightly lower.

I have no preference on materials. I'm pretty sure it was level before I had to replace the wax seal.

As you can see, I've removed the toilet after trying the next perfect seal hybrid wax ring. I'm happy to clean this mess up and switch back to wax (how do you know if you need regular or jumbo?).

Thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

For my repair, I had installed the non wax next perfect seal. had some rocking. Is it logical for me to just shim it and call it a day? My understanding is I don't need to take the toilet up for shimming the non wax ring. Is that a bad understanding on my part?

No. Good understanding.

 

[Mark Ezrin]

My brain is fried. I wasn't paying attention and ended up on 2 threads. I'm gonna stick with my original thread at:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....rfect-seal-toilet-wax-ring.80729/#post-584481

I'll respond there.

Thanks.