Rewiring a tank pressure switch?

[Jed1154]

Recently, my pressure switch contactor is not making a good connection. My pressure drops to nearly zero and I have to go out and give the switch a tap. It's just worn out and no longer centered on the contacts, this has been in service for probably 30 years. There are two sets of terminals on my switch, I have a white and a black wire going to the ones on one side. However, the other side is bare. Can I just move this set of wires over to the other contactor set and keep trucking?

These wires go from here to a small 'well control' box on the wall and then from there to the well pump.

 

[Valveman]

Yes. But if you stop the pump from cycling it won't wear out the switch like that, which is just the first sign you are cycling the pump and everything to death.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jed1154]

Yes. But if you stop the pump from cycling it won't wear out the switch like that, which is just the first sign you are cycling the pump and everything to death.

Yeah, it stays on for a minute or two before clicking off. The well pump is in a cistern that I can pull by hand (and have). I buy the cheapest well pump I can find from Tractor Supply. If I have to replace these once every ten years, I won't be mad.

 

[bigb56]

That is a 2 pole contactor with only 1 pole in use. I have done exactly what you propose, it will work fine.

 

[Bannerman]

Yeah, it stays on for a minute or two before clicking off.

Suggest de-powering your pump, then fully drain your large galvanized hydro-pneumatic (H-P) pressure tank. Once fully drained, reactivate the pump to cause water to reenter and compress the appropriate volume of air into a smaller amount of space within the tank

A well supply pipe to an H-P pressure tank, will be usually equipped with a bleeder orifice to allow some air to be automatically added each time the pump becomes activated. Adding air on an ongoing basis is needed as the air within the tank is in direct contact with the water, which will cause some of the air to become dissolved into the water, thereby resulting in insufficient air remaining in the tank within a short period of time. When this occurs, the tank will become filled with too much water, which will result in the pump 'short cycling' as you describe.

In addition, the H-P tank will be commonly also equipped with an air volume control valve, which will cause excess air to be vented out so as to maintain the correct ratio of air to water within the tank. Short cycling' can also occur If there is too much compressed air within the tank, as that will limit the amount of water that will enter the tank.

As you said water flow ceases before the pump becomes activated, and the pump only operates each time for a short period, I suspect there is insufficient air in your pressure tank, so perhaps your issue is actually caused by the bleeder valve not adding sufficient air into the tank, or maybe, because you are supplying from a cistern, perhaps no bleeder valve is installed? Without sufficient air in the H-P tank, there will be too little compressed air stored to push all of the water out from the tank, resulting in rapid pressure drop and a flow dropout until the pump becomes activated and restores flow to fixtures.

Most modern well systems now utilize a captive air pressure tank as opposed to an H-P tank. A captive tank utilizes a flexible, sealed diaphragm to separate the air and water chambers, which then results in no air becoming dissolved in the water, and therefore, no bleeder valve or air volume control needed. In addition, as the sealed air chamber will be pre-charged with compressed air before any water enters the water chamber, this will allow a captive air pressure tank to be considerably smaller in physical size compared to an H-P tank with the same draw down (water) capacity.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah, it stays on for a minute or two before clicking off. The well pump is in a cistern that I can pull by hand (and have). I buy the cheapest well pump I can find from Tractor Supply. If I have to replace these once every ten years, I won't be mad.

Clinking off in 60 seconds is the design for a 7 year average life with a good pump. That means some last 14 years, but many only last 1 year. Clicking isn't good for many reasons. If nothing else, the clicking means the pressure in the house is going up to 60 and back down to 40 over and over. You may have gotten use to that, but if you ever experience some strong constant pressure in the house you will wonder how you lived with the clicking for so long.

 

[Fitter30]

Switches fail if contacts are melted, sticking or worn from short cycling. Every time contacts open and closed there is a ark. Short cycling doesn't put enough time for the contact to cool. Contacts that chatter with be ruined is seconds as they get so hot they melt and can weld them together.

 

[Jed1154]

Clinking off in 60 seconds is the design for a 7 year average life with a good pump. That means some last 14 years, but many only last 1 year. Clicking isn't good for many reasons. If nothing else, the clicking means the pressure in the house is going up to 60 and back down to 40 over and over. You may have gotten use to that, but if you ever experience some strong constant pressure in the house you will wonder how you lived with the clicking for so long.

I looked at these in the past. I think at the time it was a very pricey proposition. Looks like I can throw one in for less than $300 now. Is that true? My well is used for domestic use but also irrigation. But my driplines are only about 400GPH. A26GPM CSV would work and might pop right in.

 

[Valveman]

I completely missed Bannerman's post. He picked up that you have a regular hydro tank without a bladder. While a Cycle Stop Valve will work with a hydro tank, it takes special considerations. Which, maybe why you thought it expensive in the past. The CSV is more expensive than in the past but still only $90 to $224 depending on which one. But you may have been told to use a bladder/diaphragm style tank, which would add to the cost.

A 400 GPH or 6 GPM drip zone can really cause lots of cycling. The Cycle Stop Valve and a small diaphragm tank would be a good choice to stop the cycling. But with the hydro tank, keeping as much air in it as possible will help. You can use a compressor at the Schrader on the check valve to add air to the tank. The picture you posted is what the pressure switch points look like when the pump has been rapid cycling from a waterlogged tank. The PK1A kit would replace that old tank and everything for like $535.

 

[Jed1154]

I completely missed Bannerman's post. He picked up that you have a regular hydro tank without a bladder. While a Cycle Stop Valve will work with a hydro tank, it takes special considerations. Which, maybe why you thought it expensive in the past. The CSV is more expensive than in the past but still only $90 to $224 depending on which one. But you may have been told to use a bladder/diaphragm style tank, which would add to the cost.

A 400 GPH or 6 GPM drip zone can really cause lots of cycling. The Cycle Stop Valve and a small diaphragm tank would be a good choice to stop the cycling. But with the hydro tank, keeping as much air in it as possible will help. You can use a compressor at the Schrader on the check valve to add air to the tank. The picture you posted is what the pressure switch points look like when the pump has been rapid cycling from a waterlogged tank. The PK1A kit would replace that old tank and everything for like $535.

View attachment 104837

This tank is still good, so, when she springs a leak, this may be the route I go. That's probably what it was. This is an old style system. Air over water and there is not AAV on this one, so, once every 3 years, I have to drain it empty (or water my garden until it's empty) and then refill. When I do that, the 1" pipe going in and the well pump will run for about 2 minutes before shutting off on a refill.

I like the CSV a lot, but I can't justify it at the moment.

 

[Valveman]

This tank is still good, so, when she springs a leak, this may be the route I go. That's probably what it was. This is an old style system. Air over water and there is not AAV on this one, so, once every 3 years, I have to drain it empty (or water my garden until it's empty) and then refill. When I do that, the 1" pipe going in and the well pump will run for about 2 minutes before shutting off on a refill.

I like the CSV a lot, but I can't justify it at the moment.

To switch to a bladder/diaphragm style tank, with or without a CSV, you will need to plug the bleeder orifice that is usually about 5' down the well.

 

[LLigetfa]

This is an old style system. Air over water and there is not AAV on this one, so, once every 3 years, I have to drain it empty (or water my garden until it's empty) and then refill.

I think you mean "AVC" (Air Volume Control) and not "AAV" (Air Admittance Valve). An AAV is what is sometimes used to vent a sewer drain.

There are two basic versions of AVC. One only bleeds excess air and the other admits air. Given that your tank waterlogs, I doubt you have a separate working air maker system (snifter/bleeder/check).

 

[Jed1154]

Right AVC is what I meant. I don't have any provisions for that on this tank. There are TWO 1.25" bungs at the bottom situated at 3 and 6 oclock. At the top, there is a 1/2" bung for a gauge. That's it.

 

[LLigetfa]

You already said that there is no AVC. What Cary mentioned is a bleeder that may accompany one type of AVC but it has not been confirmed there is a bleeder nor a snifter/check.

 

[Bannerman]

it has not been confirmed there is a bleeder nor a snifter/check.

with or without a CSV, you will need to plug the bleeder orifice that is usually about 5' down the well.

In post #3 above, Jed stated: "The well pump is in a cistern that I can pull by hand (and have)."

Unless the elevation of the cistern is substantially lower than the elevation of the piping to the pressure tank to allow sufficient drain back, I doubt this system is equipped with those items.

 

[Bannerman]

tank is still good, so, when she springs a leak, this may be the route I go.

The tank being still good, is not the point.

The cause of your initial issue, is frequent pump cycling, some of which is due to an insufficient quantity of air within the pressure tank, and also due to how water is being consumed, particularly while the 6-gpm drip lines are in operation for an extended period.

A bladder/diaphragm tank will eliminate the need to regularly add air into the pressure tank (adding air once every 3 years is insufficient).

By upgrading to a CSV system, will permit a tiny 4.5 gallon captive pressure tank to be utilized instead of a much larger (and more costly) pressure tank.

A CSV will also prevent the pump from cycling, which will extend the lifespan of not only the pump, but also other components such as the pressure switch and check valve.

Because a CSV regulates the downstream pressure, the pressure to fixtures and irrigation drip lines will remain constant, as opposed to undergoing a consistent 20 psi fall then rise each time the pump is cycled, which occurs when no CSV is utilized.

Although you are utilizing a 'cheap', easy to replace pump, your system currently is not operating in a reliable manner. This then creates an additional cost beyond just money, since repairing your water supply each time, becomes a sudden priority, which will take you away from other things you may have planned or prefer to do.

 

[Jed1154]

Still not doing it now. My issue is resolved for free but I will entertain discussion on the future needs. What do I need other than the CSV and a 5 gallon bladder tank? The current setup serves two houses, a 1 acre garden with drip irrigation, yard sprinklers, and 4 100 gallon cattle troughs.

I know I need the CSV1 that will hook into a 1.25" well to tank feed, what else? Just the bladder tank?

I have no bleeder orifice on my submersible. My submersible lives in a 7,000 gallon in ground cistern suspended by a 1.5" PVC pipe or so. Cistern is 20' deep if I recall. So, all I need is a tank and CSV I think.

 

[Valveman]

With that many different uses I would use the PK1ALT and pick up a 20 gallon size tank locally.

PK1A-LT Constant Pressure Kit less pressure tank

The PSIDE-KICK model PK1A-LT is a constant pressure pump control kit that you add to your existing pressure tank. No tank is included with this kit. This kit works for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. Allows you to use much smaller pressure tanks but can be used with larger...

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[Jed1154]

With that many different uses I would use the PK1ALT and pick up a 20 gallon size tank locally.

PK1A-LT Constant Pressure Kit less pressure tank

The PSIDE-KICK model PK1A-LT is a constant pressure pump control kit that you add to your existing pressure tank. No tank is included with this kit. This kit works for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. Allows you to use much smaller pressure tanks but can be used with larger...

cyclestopvalves.com

Perfect. I think my submersible is hooked to a 1" pipe, just inside my wellhouse, it goes to 1.25". At 1.25" I have a check valve and then we go to the pressure tank. I assume all of these new parts just start on the tank side of the check valve before my filters and softener? Or does the check valve need to be removed?

 

[Reach4]

Perfect. I think my submersible is hooked to a 1" pipe, just inside my wellhouse, it goes to 1.25". At 1.25" I have a check valve and then we go to the pressure tank. I assume all of these new parts just start on the tank side of the check valve before my filters and softener? Or does the check valve need to be removed?

Probably removed, but that will depend on if you have a drain-back hole or valve in the well.

Does that check valve have a thing that looks like a Schrader valve (tire valve stem)?

Note that an advantage to the galvanized tank is that is adds some air to the water, and can reduce H2S smell. I know that there is doubt that you have a drain-back in the well.